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Pilot job #1 pay for starters?
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propjob27
I have people skills!
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Wow, I guess they don't start counting until your 2nd year at a major.
Whatever ****************************** nozzle wrote the article must not count:
The 18K I made my first year at Lakes
22K I made my 1st year at SkyWest
45K I made my 2nd year at SkyWest
35K I made my first year at ATA
30K I made my first year at CAL.
Nice to read the good news that most everyone else starts at 55K a year.
Ok, so I have way too much time on reserve, but how about instead of just biatching on flightinfo we make this guy a little bit more aware.
The blog post was based on statistics from the book "250 Best Paying Jobs" by Laurence Shatkin PhD. According to his website his email is [email protected]
Below is the email I sent him. Feel free to copy and paste any and all of it, maybe if he gets a couple hundred emails it will at least make him think.
cale
Dear Dr. Shatkin,
I am writing today to address what I find to be a disturbing trend in the job market today that I find unfortunately your series of books perpetuates. This is using Bureau of Labor statistical data to advise of the best paying jobs when the data is clearly flawed and not accurately analysed. I find myself acutely aware of it because I work in one of the most erroneously reported industries there is, professional aviation. As an airline pilot I find myself consistently stunned to learn that I work in one of the top paying professions both overall and for beginners when I know this to simply be not true. This blog post, http://msn.careerbuilder.com/Article/MSN-2235-Salaries-and-Promotions-10-Jobs-That-Pay-Beginners-Well/?cbsid=5ea27af86a01443ca7c5cc625578aac2-326965920-VN-4&sc_extcmp=JS_2235_jobmod&cbRecursionCnt=2&SiteId=cbmsnjm42235&ArticleID=2235, was brought to my attention as it cites data entirely from your book, "250 Best-Paying Jobs". It states that the 10th percentile of airline pilots earn $55,330 per year. This stunned me as I have been an airline pilot for 4 years and have never made nearly that much money. In fact I don't know more than 1 or 2 people in the profession at my level that earn that much money.
Understanding that you simply cite the Bureau of Labor statistics, I opted to dig into those statistics to see why there is such an error. Imagine my surprise to learn that according to the Bureau of Labor only 62,680 people are employed as airline pilots, co-pilots, and flight engineers in scheduled transportation. A quick review of airline rosters would reveal that the number barely even encompasses the pilots at the 10 largest US airlines. However there are roughly 40 airlines that engage in scheduled transportation. By taking the top 10 you of course will get the highest pay scales, but that means 30 companies pay scales were not even taken into consideration.
So while the Bureau of Labor statistics are in fact incorrect I feel that if you are going to publish a book called "250 Best-Paying Jobs" and you are a PhD that claims to be a "Career Information Expert" that more research would be required than simply copying and pasting government produced data. A review of that data would show it's inaccuracies and a knowledge of the industry itself would allow you to know that it is logistically impossible to start an aviation career at one of the ten best carriers. In order to get hired at one of those top companies they require years of experience at smaller carriers with dramatically reduced wages.
While you are certainly not alone in publishing and promoting these statistics I feel it is important to speak out and try to get the truth to more people. Airline pilots on the whole are one of the most underpaid professions that currently exist. However books like yours that lead to blog posts like the one that prompted this email paint an entirely unrealistic picture of my job and allow the general public to see me as overpaid and spoiled, which I most certainly am not. They also entice people into a profession only for them to be sorely disappointed. I sincerely hope you will take this into consideration the next time airline pilot makes one of your statistical lists.
Thank your for your time.
xxxx xxxxxxxx
The blog post was based on statistics from the book "250 Best Paying Jobs" by Laurence Shatkin PhD. According to his website his email is [email protected]
Below is the email I sent him. Feel free to copy and paste any and all of it, maybe if he gets a couple hundred emails it will at least make him think.
cale
Dear Dr. Shatkin,
I am writing today to address what I find to be a disturbing trend in the job market today that I find unfortunately your series of books perpetuates. This is using Bureau of Labor statistical data to advise of the best paying jobs when the data is clearly flawed and not accurately analysed. I find myself acutely aware of it because I work in one of the most erroneously reported industries there is, professional aviation. As an airline pilot I find myself consistently stunned to learn that I work in one of the top paying professions both overall and for beginners when I know this to simply be not true. This blog post, http://msn.careerbuilder.com/Article/MSN-2235-Salaries-and-Promotions-10-Jobs-That-Pay-Beginners-Well/?cbsid=5ea27af86a01443ca7c5cc625578aac2-326965920-VN-4&sc_extcmp=JS_2235_jobmod&cbRecursionCnt=2&SiteId=cbmsnjm42235&ArticleID=2235, was brought to my attention as it cites data entirely from your book, "250 Best-Paying Jobs". It states that the 10th percentile of airline pilots earn $55,330 per year. This stunned me as I have been an airline pilot for 4 years and have never made nearly that much money. In fact I don't know more than 1 or 2 people in the profession at my level that earn that much money.
Understanding that you simply cite the Bureau of Labor statistics, I opted to dig into those statistics to see why there is such an error. Imagine my surprise to learn that according to the Bureau of Labor only 62,680 people are employed as airline pilots, co-pilots, and flight engineers in scheduled transportation. A quick review of airline rosters would reveal that the number barely even encompasses the pilots at the 10 largest US airlines. However there are roughly 40 airlines that engage in scheduled transportation. By taking the top 10 you of course will get the highest pay scales, but that means 30 companies pay scales were not even taken into consideration.
So while the Bureau of Labor statistics are in fact incorrect I feel that if you are going to publish a book called "250 Best-Paying Jobs" and you are a PhD that claims to be a "Career Information Expert" that more research would be required than simply copying and pasting government produced data. A review of that data would show it's inaccuracies and a knowledge of the industry itself would allow you to know that it is logistically impossible to start an aviation career at one of the ten best carriers. In order to get hired at one of those top companies they require years of experience at smaller carriers with dramatically reduced wages.
While you are certainly not alone in publishing and promoting these statistics I feel it is important to speak out and try to get the truth to more people. Airline pilots on the whole are one of the most underpaid professions that currently exist. However books like yours that lead to blog posts like the one that prompted this email paint an entirely unrealistic picture of my job and allow the general public to see me as overpaid and spoiled, which I most certainly am not. They also entice people into a profession only for them to be sorely disappointed. I sincerely hope you will take this into consideration the next time airline pilot makes one of your statistical lists.
Thank your for your time.
xxxx xxxxxxxx
They also forget to point some like myself, one who has been in the "industry"...for over 15 yrs furloughed twice...started at 13.25 an hr and now if you spread out all the time away from home I make about 10.00. Kind of funny thats missing from the books. Also whats funny is the, "BEGINNER" part.
I have an engineering degree.. when I graduated in 01 I had three job offers, the lowest of which was for $46K, so I'm thinking no the engineers don't say that.
It was a goofy list though since it had lawyers and several fields of medicine on there.. those guys are even deeper in debt than pilots and have years of post grad experience, kind of odd to even think of it in terms of entry level pay.
It was a goofy list though since it had lawyers and several fields of medicine on there.. those guys are even deeper in debt than pilots and have years of post grad experience, kind of odd to even think of it in terms of entry level pay.
I am a Chemical Engineer and those salaries are accurate, right out of college. So I took one of those jobs and got all of my pilot certs up to ATP. Then I quit my engineering job to fly. Had to convince the wife that taking a $40k paycut to fly 135 was a great deal. Flying is more fun than engineering to me. Nice thing about engineering is when you lose your job you can find another one at about the same pay. Flying is not the same with the seniority set up.
corpflunkie
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2003
- Posts
- 164
Cale42,
You inspired me to write my own letter to Dr. Shatkin. Thanks for doing that and to list2002 for posting the article. I would hope that ALPA would also engage as they represent many of these "first year pilots" who are being paid well below what they are worth to the passengers who entrust their lives to every day.
Chase
__________________
Dear Dr. Shatkin,
I read an article on careerbuilder.com that used as its source your research that states first year airline pilots are the highest paid persons as a new hire in the work force. Using the Bureau of Labor Statistics as your source you and the readers who read your assumptions are provided false information; beginning airline pilots are by no means the highest paid first year employees.
I am a 10th year Captain for a major airline and am blessed to be in that position. Prior to beginning my career in the civilian world I began my flying career in the Air Force. Most of the first year pilots I fly with are hardly "first year pilots"....would you trust your family's life to a first year pilot flying in weather and conditions that require a vast amount of experience? Where do these "first year airline pilots" get their experience? They get it from flying as an instructor pilot which in most cases results in salaries that are more than 50% less than published by the Bureau and yourself and others who quote your research.
First year astronauts make pretty good money also but trust me, they didn't simply fill out the application and piss in a cup to get the job. The same can be said for a "first year airline" pilot.
This is clearly not taken into account by the Bureau of Labor statistics....it took many years, particularly for civilian pilots, who worked for minimal pay, who will most likely toil at a charter flight service, flight instructing or smaller regional carrier for many years (again for much less pay than you say a "first year airline pilot" makes) and who can only hope the timing and opportunity presents itself to interview for a job with one of the major carriers. ONLY then, can a pilot come close to the "first year airline" pay that the Bureau of Labor Statistics and you say is available to those seeking to go into that career field.
I've done some basic research for you but please check the data at this website, www.airlinepilotcentral.com, specifically this link for the various regional airlines http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional.html .
I've listed the first 10 regional airlines at the above link and their "first year pay" below:
Air Wisconsin $21,000 + per diem
Cape Air $12,600 + per diem
Colgan Air $18,900 + per diem
(BTW, this was the amount of money being paid to the young First Officer who was killed in the Buffalo, NY accident in early 2009...she was living with her parents in Washington state and commuted half way across the country to her base because she couldn't afford housing on her salary)
ComuteAir $17,712 + per diem
Compass $20,160 + per diem
Era $25,000 + per diem
Go Jet $20,160 + per diem
Great Lakes $14,400 + per diem
Gulfstream $16,200 + per diem
Horizon Air $26,100 + per diem
The average pay for "first year pilots" based upon the small sample is $19,223. Your information overstates the first year pay of an airline pilot by over $33,000! I would hope you can understand why missing the mark so much would result in an email such as mine and I suspect possibly others who may be aware of your research. While I have no measure of hope of ever changing the Bureau of Labor Statistics or any government agency in realizing their errors, I would hope a man of your scholarly reputaion would use this data to correct any false assumptions you may have and correct the data you provide to others.
Finally, this the defined "minimum requirements" in terms of flight hours for an applicant for just one of these regional carriers.
* Flight time: 1500 TT, Flight Multi-engine
The important item to note here is the amount of hours required. Most college graduates or persons looking to be hired by employees have zero to very little experience in the profession they are enterting except for an internship or other OJT Most employees would love to have any new employee with an equivalent amount of experience and one that has performed under the pressure of flying in terrible weather conditions, performed possibly a dozen or more FAA flight and ground examinations and worked for previous employees who can confirm or deny of the applicants work ethic...something most "new employers" in other career fields don't have the advantage of being able to do. This further shows that even at these meager wages, these are hardly "first year pilots" but are rather experienced pilots but not being paid for that experience as one would expect in most career fields.
You inspired me to write my own letter to Dr. Shatkin. Thanks for doing that and to list2002 for posting the article. I would hope that ALPA would also engage as they represent many of these "first year pilots" who are being paid well below what they are worth to the passengers who entrust their lives to every day.
Chase
__________________
Dear Dr. Shatkin,
I read an article on careerbuilder.com that used as its source your research that states first year airline pilots are the highest paid persons as a new hire in the work force. Using the Bureau of Labor Statistics as your source you and the readers who read your assumptions are provided false information; beginning airline pilots are by no means the highest paid first year employees.
I am a 10th year Captain for a major airline and am blessed to be in that position. Prior to beginning my career in the civilian world I began my flying career in the Air Force. Most of the first year pilots I fly with are hardly "first year pilots"....would you trust your family's life to a first year pilot flying in weather and conditions that require a vast amount of experience? Where do these "first year airline pilots" get their experience? They get it from flying as an instructor pilot which in most cases results in salaries that are more than 50% less than published by the Bureau and yourself and others who quote your research.
First year astronauts make pretty good money also but trust me, they didn't simply fill out the application and piss in a cup to get the job. The same can be said for a "first year airline" pilot.
This is clearly not taken into account by the Bureau of Labor statistics....it took many years, particularly for civilian pilots, who worked for minimal pay, who will most likely toil at a charter flight service, flight instructing or smaller regional carrier for many years (again for much less pay than you say a "first year airline pilot" makes) and who can only hope the timing and opportunity presents itself to interview for a job with one of the major carriers. ONLY then, can a pilot come close to the "first year airline" pay that the Bureau of Labor Statistics and you say is available to those seeking to go into that career field.
I've done some basic research for you but please check the data at this website, www.airlinepilotcentral.com, specifically this link for the various regional airlines http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional.html .
I've listed the first 10 regional airlines at the above link and their "first year pay" below:
Air Wisconsin $21,000 + per diem
Cape Air $12,600 + per diem
Colgan Air $18,900 + per diem
(BTW, this was the amount of money being paid to the young First Officer who was killed in the Buffalo, NY accident in early 2009...she was living with her parents in Washington state and commuted half way across the country to her base because she couldn't afford housing on her salary)
ComuteAir $17,712 + per diem
Compass $20,160 + per diem
Era $25,000 + per diem
Go Jet $20,160 + per diem
Great Lakes $14,400 + per diem
Gulfstream $16,200 + per diem
Horizon Air $26,100 + per diem
The average pay for "first year pilots" based upon the small sample is $19,223. Your information overstates the first year pay of an airline pilot by over $33,000! I would hope you can understand why missing the mark so much would result in an email such as mine and I suspect possibly others who may be aware of your research. While I have no measure of hope of ever changing the Bureau of Labor Statistics or any government agency in realizing their errors, I would hope a man of your scholarly reputaion would use this data to correct any false assumptions you may have and correct the data you provide to others.
Finally, this the defined "minimum requirements" in terms of flight hours for an applicant for just one of these regional carriers.
* Flight time: 1500 TT, Flight Multi-engine
The important item to note here is the amount of hours required. Most college graduates or persons looking to be hired by employees have zero to very little experience in the profession they are enterting except for an internship or other OJT Most employees would love to have any new employee with an equivalent amount of experience and one that has performed under the pressure of flying in terrible weather conditions, performed possibly a dozen or more FAA flight and ground examinations and worked for previous employees who can confirm or deny of the applicants work ethic...something most "new employers" in other career fields don't have the advantage of being able to do. This further shows that even at these meager wages, these are hardly "first year pilots" but are rather experienced pilots but not being paid for that experience as one would expect in most career fields.
Please, please update your data and correct future presentations so that you are not misleading the American public and those who wish to go into the aviation career field.
I love my job and am blessed to be at the top of the food chain in terms of pay. However, research such as yours that is published for others to see are not giving the full picture of what financial sacrifices and challenges face those who wish to start at the bottom and work their way up. More importantly you leave the impression with the reader that the pilots who are flying their airplanes are better off income/salary wise when in reality the bus driver or taxi cab driver who drove them to the airport and most likely the TSA agent who inspected their luggage is making more than the first year and in some cases even older first officers on regional carriers.
Your reputation would be enhanced and the public would be better served with a more accurate picture of the pay of pilots with these suggested corrections.
__________________
Tail Gunner Joe
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2005
- Posts
- 203
I cut, pasted and email "Cale42" letter and recieved this response:
Thanks for your highly detailed message. I do consider myself a career
information expert, and part of being an expert is knowing when to acknowledge
that I have been wrong. I explained the nature of my error in a blog a few weeks
ago. You can read it at http://www.fastcompany.com/1595216/beginning-wages-of-airline-pilots.
If you know anyone else who noticed the error in the original posting, please
call my correction to the attention of that person.
Laurence Shatkin, PhD
Senior Product Developer
JIST Publishing
Thanks for your highly detailed message. I do consider myself a career
information expert, and part of being an expert is knowing when to acknowledge
that I have been wrong. I explained the nature of my error in a blog a few weeks
ago. You can read it at http://www.fastcompany.com/1595216/beginning-wages-of-airline-pilots.
If you know anyone else who noticed the error in the original posting, please
call my correction to the attention of that person.
Laurence Shatkin, PhD
Senior Product Developer
JIST Publishing
thruthemurk
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2003
- Posts
- 224
Cool to see you got a response as I didn't, but I'm impressed the author was willing to admit some error in his findings.
What is disturbing still is that the Bureau of Labor statistics in no way take into account the seniority nature of the airlines in their statistics. The median and 10th percentile salaries are inflated now because no major airline has anyone below third year pay and many have no one below 10th year pay. It will be interesting to watch those numbers plummet once hiring(hopefully) resumes with any pace.
However I suppose that is way too much to hope for a government survey.
cale
oh, and great letter chase, more clearly written than mine, I was so angry at the guy I didn't reason out my points as well as I would have liked.
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