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Pilot/Instructor currency

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need2AV8

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
81
Everything I have been taught says that your pilot certificate currency is separate from your flight instructor currency. For example: within 24 calendar months from your last flight review or new pilot certificate/rating, you must have a flight review. Flight instructor certificates which are earned within that 24 months do not count toward pilot certificate currency. Others contend that the flight instructor checkride counts as a 'proficiency check.'

The question is, do flight instructor checkrides count as proficiency checks toward pilot certificate currency, as outlined in part 61?

Anyone know the position the FAA and airlines take?

(Also posted in 'FARs' forum)
 
CFI Checkrides DO NOT count as BFR's. However, they will count as a BFR if...

#1 You ask the examiner to make this a BFR as well as a CFI checkride.

or

#2 If you are employed at a 141 school, a CFI checkride (most likely an additional CFI rating) might also be considered your annual 141 proficiency check. An annual 141 proficiency check IS considered a flight review.
 
141 and instructor rides as BFRs

gnx99 said:
An annual 141 proficiency check IS considered a flight review.
. . . but, to be on the safe side and to ensure everything is in order, the general opinion is to also have it written up as a flight review. Same for an instructor ride; in fact, I would have the instructor who signs-off an instructor applicant and not the examiner write it up as a flight review.
 
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here's an FAA letter that midlifeflyer posted in response to a thread I started a few months back on the same topic. Found it quite useful!


==============================
1 Aviation Plaza
Room 561
Jamaica, NY 11434

RE: Interpretation of FAR 61.56(d)

Dear Mr. Dennstaedt:

This is in response to your letter dated August 25, 2001, wherein you ask whether an airman can satisfy the flight review requirement under 14 C.F.R. (Federal Aviation Regulation [FAR]) 61.56 by passing a practical test to become a certified flight instructor (CFI), as required by FAR 61.183.

Under FAR 61.56(c)(1), one may not act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft unless, within the preceding 24 calendar months, he has "accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor." Under FAR 61.56(c)(2), the airman must receive a logbook endorsement from the authorized instructor certifying that he has satisfactorily completed the review. Under FAR 61.56(a), a flight review must include: (1) a review of the current general operating and flight rules of Part 91; and (2) a review of those maneuvers and procedures that, at the discretion of the person giving the review, are necessary for the pilot to demonstrate the safe exercise of the privileges of the pilot certificate.

Under FAR 61.56(d), however, the flight review requirement of FAR 61.56(c)(1) does not apply to one who has "passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate rating, or operating privilege."

The issue you raise is whether passing a practical test to become a CFI can fall within the exception to the flight review requirement that is provided by FAR 61.56(d). Under FAR 183(h), to be eligible for a flight instructor certificate or rating, the applicant must "pass the required practical test that is appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought." The FAA Practical Test Standards (PTS) for the airplane flight instructor examiner (sic) requires that the examiner ensure that the flight instructor applicant has the "ability to perform the procedures and maneuvers included in the standards to at least the commercial pilot skill level."

Thus, the instructor has broad discretion in conducting a flight review. A CFI practical test encompasses the demonstration of various basic maneuvers that an instructor is likely to cover in a flight review. Incorporating a flight review into the CFI practical test could be accomplished, therefore, with little, if any difficulty.

Accordingly, a CFI practical test will not per se fulfill the flight review requirement. A practical test for a CFI rating under FAR 61.183, taken within 24 months of a prior flight review, can readily meet the flight review requirement of FAR 61.56(d), however, if the examiner is satisfied that a flight review endorsement can be given. To ensure that the CFI applicant gets credit for successful completion of the flight review, however, he or she should ask the examiner to conduct the CFI oral and practical test so as to satisfy the flight review requirements as well, and to make a logbook endorsement for the flight review upon completion of the examination.

If you have additional inquiries, please contact Zachary M. Berman of this office at (718) 553-3258.

Sincerely,


Loretta E. Alkalay
==============================
 
This letter clerifies things, however I do have one other question...
This implies that a Flight instructor certificate is NOT a pilot certificate. (this makes sense to me...)
What is it considered then? Its not a rating, not a pilot certificate...is it just simply a flight instructor certificate and no other category?
 
I replied in "FAR" forum as well. Re: CFI renewal and BFR, see FAR 61.56(f), which allows one hour of ground to be applied to BFR for CFI renewal under 61.197. 61.197 includes CFI renewal by practical test. This probably assumes the renewal was not otherwise intended as and conducted concurrently as a BFR and that no BFR endorsement was given. So, a CFI renewal by practical test under 61.197 with no attention given at the time to BFR fulfillment would waive the one hour of BFR ground time, per 61.56(f), but would appear to have no effect on the BFR flight time requirement.
 
U-I pilot said:
This implies that a Flight instructor certificate is NOT a pilot certificate. (this makes sense to me...)
What is it considered then? Its not a rating, not a pilot certificate...is it just simply a flight instructor certificate and no other category?
Pretty much. From a pure regulation standpoint, the FAR treats instructor certificates separately from pilot certificates. Staring with

==============================
§ 61.1 Applicability and definitions.
(a) This part prescribes:
(1) The requirements for issuing =pilot, flight instructor, and ground instructor certificates= and ratings; the conditions under which those certificates and ratings are necessary; and the privileges and limitations of those certificates and ratings.
(2) The requirements for issuing =pilot, flight instructor, and ground instructor= authorizations; the conditions under which those authorizations are necessary; and the privileges and limitations of those authorizations.
(3) The requirements for issuing =pilot, flight instructor, and ground instructor= certificates and ratings for persons who have taken courses approved by the Administrator under other parts of this chapter.
==============================

The differentiation continues throughout the FAR and general FAA policy with amazing consistency, from medical certificate requirements (a CFI doesn't need one unless he's also acting as PIC) to the requirement to have each certificate available when exercising that certificate's privileges to the requirement that, in order to teach in an aircraft, a CFI must have both "A pilot certificate =and= flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating" (61.195(b)(1). One may exist, but it would be hard to find an FAR that =does= treat the flight instructor certificate as a pilot certificate.
 
CFI renewal doesnt count as proficiency check so therefore cant not be counted as a BFR...but the CFI checkride for the cerfitficate does...
 
superrav said:
CFI renewal doesn't count as proficiency check so therefore cant not be counted as a BFR...but the CFI checkride for the cerfitficate does...
There's no difference. It might make sense for the FR rule to say "a practical test for a flight instructor certificate" but it doesn't.

One thing we tend to forget in all of this. What has to be done on a CFI practical test is =not= in a regulation. The PTS doesn't have to go through the same long process as an FAR change. So, even though under the PTS as it is written and generally administered right now, it's nearly impossible to pass without also showing pilot proficiency, we could (not likely) wake up tomorrow morning to find the PTS rewritten so that you can show "instructional knowledge" without ever touching the yoke. That may be the reason that the FR reg is written the way it is.
 
U-I pilot said:

This implies that a Flight instructor certificate is NOT a pilot certificate. (this makes sense to me...)
What is it considered then? Its not a rating, not a pilot certificate...is it just simply a flight instructor certificate and no other category?

From my understanding, it is a teaching or instructors certificate... not a pilot certrificate. It's sort of like a ground instructor certificate. The ground instructor does not have the prvilage of teaching in the air... only on the ground...but a CFI and a ground instructor are in the same classification... both are considered teachers certificates. This is why, to simply pass a teacher's check ride, even though it may be for a CFI, does not automatically count for passing a BFR. So... simply have the Check airman put in a logbook endorsement for the BFR when you take the CFI check ride... and make sure to deal with this prior to taking the ride. That's my understanding of it... but don't trust me... research it with the FAA cause all of us on this chat line could be wrong.
 
ok...im not quite sure the last few responses have cleared things up...if anything it is now conflicting.

supperrav says:
CFI renewal doesnt count as proficiency check so therefore cant not be counted as a BFR...but the CFI checkride for the cerfitficate does...

gnx99 says:
CFI Checkrides DO NOT count as BFR's.

please draw a line for me.
 
from the way im reading the reg..thats how i understand it. the CFI is a certificate..where does it say its not.

read the the line where it says certificates, ratings or operating privilege. Maybe its a operating privilige.
 
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the line in the FAR's says pilot certificate. I dont think CFI is a pilot certificate, only a certificate. Pilot certificate is like ATP, commercial, private....etc
i guess that is the grey area as i see it.
 
Read 61.181. Its says isuance of flight instructor certificate. If it wasnt a certificate it wouldnt say that would it?
 
superrav said:
Read 61.181. Its says issuance of flight instructor certificate. If it wasn't a certificate it wouldn't say that would it?
You misunderstand.

Of course the flight instructor certificate is a "certificate". But it's not a "pilot certificate". Take a look at my post with the definitions and other sections.

Then take a look at 61.56 which says that you don't need a BFR if you have

==============================
"passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege...
==============================

That's the crux. Neither a "flight instructor" certificate nor a "ground instructor" certificate is a "pilot" certificate.
 
U-I pilot said:
ok...im not quite sure the last few responses have cleared things up...if anything it is now conflicting.

supperrav says:

:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CFI renewal doesn't count as proficiency check so therefore cant not be counted as a BFR...but the CFI checkride for the cerfitficate does...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

***
please draw a line for me.
Sure. Supetnav's statement is incorrect. Neither waives the need for a FR endorsement.
 
So your saying when i did my CFI intial that didnt renew my 24 months from the date of my last checkride...that would mean i shouldnt be flying...correct? just making sure i understand this correctly. In ground school i was taught something diff...
 
Superrav,

You were taught incorrectly.

The flight instructor certificate is a certificate. So is my ground instructor certificate. So is my mechanic certificate. So is my flight engineer certificate, so is my...

That it is a certificate, means nothing. It is not a PILOT certificate.
It is not a PILOT operating privilege.

Passing the practical test for the flight instructor certificate does not mean you have passed the practical test for a pilot certificate, any more than passing the practical test for a dispatcher certificate, mechanic certificate, air traffic controller certificate, or navigator certificate would.

14 CFR 61.56(d) specifically states:

(d) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review required by this section.

Note the phraseology, ...PILOT proficiency check... . Note again the phraseology ...for a PILOT certificate, rating, or operating privilege.... The language of this subpart may be taken literally in it's meaning to show that the proficiency check for a certificate, rating, or operating privilege applies only to a PILOT certificate, PILOT rating, or PILOT operating privilege.
 
got it..thanks
 

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