Pilot Career Losing Luster

[bobbysamd]

NAFTA

We DROVE business from the US.

We made impossible environmental laws that made it too expensive to do heavy manufacturing.

We passed legislation that mandated certain types of employees be hired, causing tension in the ranks and a culture of appearances instead of ablities.

We failed to require that high school grads be able to at least read their diplomas.

Any number of countries will welcome our businesses without any rules, laws, or anything but an eager, hard working, homogenous workforce who will do the job for one tenth the price . . . .

Don't forget about NAFTA. That was well thought-out, too.

I second Timebuilder heartily on his literacy (or lack thereof) comment.

I never got into professional aviation for the glamor. I got into it for the same reason as most people - I liked flying airplanes. It was never for the money, or lack thereof, either. As long as I could pay my bills and was compensated fairly, I was a happy man and happy with what I was doing. Of course, the BS at times was more than one can stand, but, when it comes right down to it, there is BS in every job.

 

[surfnole]

W.C. Fields was right, there IS a sucker born every minute!

From

http://www.nbaa.org/@@2AXvBS-FwQEF/factbook/2001/section4.htm

The pilot population in the United States remains fairly stable. Numbers for 1999 show that over 120,000 aviators possess a commercial pilot certificate, and more than 137,000 have an airline transport pilot certificate. The vast majority of business aircraft pilots possess the most advanced pilot licenses.

If the majors and large cargo carriers employ 75,000 pilots of the 137K pilots that hold an ATP license, then half of those ATP pilots would have a good career going. This does not include corporate, fractional and regional pilots who enjoy a good salary. So..... perhaps most pilots past the flight instructor level aren't starving.

 

[WrightAvia]

I don't mean to keep flicking you in the gonads, but you are mixing up your own numbers...

I'm not sure about this, but don't most employed pilots work at majors?

The pilot population in the United States remains fairly stable. Numbers for 1999 show that over 120,000 aviators possess a commercial pilot certificate, and more than 137,000 have an airline transport pilot certificate.

That means according to you...out of 257,000 pilots that can be paid to make a living, 75,000 work for major airlines. That isn't anywhere mathematically close to major airlines being the "employers of most pilots".

Also those numbers in that magazine article you are reading are 1999 numbers. 1999 numbers.

 

[Timebuilder]

If the majors and large cargo carriers employ 75,000 pilots of the 137K pilots that hold an ATP license, then half of those ATP pilots would have a good career going. This does not include corporate, fractional and regional pilots who enjoy a good salary. So..... perhaps most pilots past the flight instructor level aren't starving.

First, post-9/11, I don't think you have 75,000 pilots employed by majors and large cargo carriers. Second, paid pilot positions don't always need an ATP, so that is going to throw off the discussion in another misleading way.

Here's where we started:

I'm not sure about this, but don't most employed pilots work at majors?

The simple answer is no, they don't. For every major pilot who has a job there are literally a couple of hundred guys with a commercial ticket that would like to have that job, mostly because that major job has historically brought the best lifestyle one can find as a working pilot.

Now, consider the unprecedented decline in passenger enplanements, the tossing out of labor agreements, the use of low-pay alter ego carriers and the inability of even a flight instructor to find a job without canvassing the entire country.

Does this sound like most pilots are having a satisfactory experience in their career? No. Some have held onto a job, and some have been fortunate enough to find work at a fractional or regional. Most pilots who are qualified for commercial work have not found those jobs, and many more furloughed pilots will never see their old cockpit again. Some will find work, but many will be passed over as being overqualified or be seen as likely to become discontented.

In fact, I think most pilots are either looking for work (my current specialty) or looking for a job that will pay them a wage that they can feel satisfied with. A few of us will find that satisfaction, and the rest of us will simply take what comes.

 

[House_X]

The worst day in the cockpit is...and will always be...better than the best day in a 9-5 cubical. I worked the 9-5 racket...and switched to being a poor F/O. The training was difficult, but it was well worth it. The pay s#cks, but the days off, and the comraderie is why I love to fly.

Someone once asked me why I switched careers...I told them, "every time I heard a jet, I had an involuntary reaction to look-up." Now I look down on the 9-5 racket...it feels good.

If I get furloughed, I will always look positively on my airline experience...my cubicle will be the one filled with pictures of Dorniers.....

House

 

[surfnole]

The simple answer is no, they don't. For every major pilot who has a job there are literally a couple of hundred guys with a commercial ticket that would like to have that job, mostly because that major job has historically brought the best lifestyle one can find as a working pilot.

Accorinding to the article

120,000 aviators possess a commercial pilot certificate, and more than 137,000 posess an ATP

I am not in the industry, so I don't understand how there can be more ATP certificates than commerical. I would think every ATP would need a commercial certificate...but thats another story.

Assuming there are 50K working for majors and FedEx, UPS, etc (Delta alone has 9000), there is no way their could be 200 commercial pilots looking for each of those jobs. Only 120,000 pilots hold a commercial certificate. While those are 1999 numbers, the pilot population has remained constant over the years. If anything, those holding certificates has been declining. Perhaps each major, decent airline and cargo carrier has 20K resumes on file because each one of those pilots aspiring for a decent job has their resume in at every airlline.

I'm not trying to start a flame ware here, this is something I have wondered about. I know the career is very difficult. On the other hand, this board is dominated by CFIs, regional pilots etc. aspiring to the majors. There are very few non-furloughed major pilots posting here, so perhaps the perspective is skewed on this board. Maybe its only the military guys that don't have the all the career problems.

 

[NuGuy]

Hi Surf,

I would say that TimeBuilder is closer to the mark. Your numbers may be a bit misleading for the following reasons:

1. Not all pilots who have a commercial/ATP utilize them for commercial purposes. Many simply achieve the rating for personal improvement of their piloting skills or better rates for insurance. I would bet that a sizable percentage of commercial/atp holders NEVER fly for hire.

2. Many commercial/ATP holders are flight instructors, some of whom, for one reason or another, don't want to fly commercially.

3. Don't forget, pilot certificates don't expire, so I'm sure a large number of ticket holders are retired. A better number to use would be the number of 2nd or 1st class medicals issued, although even that number is skewed by reasons 1 and 2. Don't forget to subtract those who have lost their medical.

4. The numbers you cite are for ALL commercial/ATP certificates in ALL types of aircraft. Subtract the number of rotorcraft, glider, lighter-than-air and powered-lift certificates from your total.

Probably the best way to figure the total number of airline and/or airline bound pilots is to find the number of commercial/ATP certificates with AMEL ratings AND active 1st or 2nd class medicals. Even then, your number is going to be fat, because sometimes people just like the challenge of getting those tickets.

I would say that out of every 10 people who start the road (student starts), maybe 3 people get to the majors/regionals, but thats just a guess from personal experience.

Best,
Nu


PS Hey Timebuilder...did I miss an episode? Arn't you still flying the Lear?

 

[Huck]

The worst day in the cockpit is...and will always be...better than the best day in a 9-5 cubical

My sentiments exactly. If I couldn't do this I'd drive trucks. And I've felt this way ever since the right seat of the BE-200.

I hate to drone on about the old days, but when I started flying, it was taking 5 years to make Brasilia left seat at ASA. 10 years for ATR, and there were no jets. Nobody was hiring except SWA, and there were over 100 Eastern guys in my hometown alone (BHM) looking for corporate jobs. I met a guy who had retired from flying F-4's and was driving a courier truck, waiting for a slot to fly an Aerostar. And he had been waiting 7 months.

Things will get better - they always have. As Pancho said in the Right Stuff, some pud-knocker's got to fly those things.

 

[Timebuilder]

PS Hey Timebuilder...did I miss an episode? Arn't you still flying the Lear?

Yes, you missed that episode.

I was laid off on May 11th (I think...no May calendar in front of me..) and that was two weeks before my 8410 was due to expire. I wasn't able to find a job lead until June, and no one wanted to spend the $2,000 or so to get me current again.

So, I'm finishing off my ATP, and getting ready to go down to SimCom to get my type and a PIC check for a guy that flies out of TEB, a place I used to fly in and out of a couple of times a week. That will probably take place in August.

Right now I'm working with a producer in Manhattan and preparing to record a new voiceover demo to get some more work in between flights. Each session is the cost of an hour in a new SP, and the train adds another $90. Whew!

Another guy I know who is doing plastering instead of flying will probably get together with me to rent a Seneca for an hour to go do some approaches. I got to do some instructing a couple of months ago when he was working on his ATP. It sure wasn't like a Lear.

Thanks for asking.

 

[WrightAvia]

Hi NuGuy, those figures for Commercial and ATP certificates listed by the 1999 NBAA link that surfnhole posted probably had active medicals. To see what numbers where posted you'll have to scroll back and click on his link where alot of statistics were being bantered about. I can't imagine that the NBAA would be counting non-medical'd pilots in a pilot job survey.

The only numbers not on that link are the actual numbers of "MAJOR AIRLINE" pilots, which surfnhole has guessed at 75,000 to 50,000.

 

[Ty Webb]

NuGuy:

"1/3 of all student starts make it to the majors"? What crack or crevice tool did you use to pull that one out?

I would be surprised if 1/3 of all student starts made it to a Commercial certificate. At my University program, less than 1/3 of those who entered the program ever finished up their certificates, let alone went to work for a major, and that was a proram geared to crank out professional pilots.

There are probably 60,000 or so pilots working for a major right now. Add 'em up, there aren;t that many. The regionals and nationals, when combined, probably employ a similar number, from what I have read in the past.

Regardless, the majors are shrinking, not expanding, and the regional and nationals are growing. I think this trend is likely to continue for the foreseeable future.

My guess is that historically, probably 1 in 3 Commercial pilots aspiring to a major airline job will actually get one, and this is likely to decrease in the future, not increase.

My other personal observation is that 100% of happy pilots are happy, and 100% of unhappy pilots are unhappy . . . and that once the bills are paid, regardless of whether you work for a major, or not.

 

[NuGuy]

Hi Ty,

Read my post again.

>>I would say that out of every 10 people who start the road (student starts), maybe 3 people get to the majors/regionals, but thats just a guess from personal experience.<<

I could have been more specific regarding "starting the road", meaning career track students, but how do you jump from my words:

"maybe 3 people get to the majors/regionals"

to your version of my words :

"1/3 of all student starts make it to the majors"?

Read a little closer. Majors/Regionals = majors OR regionals

Hey TimeBuilder:
Sorry to hear that man. Thats a bummer. Good luck to ya.

Best,
Nu

 

[Timebuilder]

Hey TimeBuilder:
Sorry to hear that man. Thats a bummer. Good luck to ya.

Thanks.

Even though this isn't what I had planned, I know that it IS a part of A plan. I'm making the best of it, and patiently (most days) waiting to see how it all unfolds.