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Pilot Career Losing Luster

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FurloughedAgain

Cabin Heating & Air Tech.
Joined
Jun 5, 2002
Posts
1,657
http://www.nola.com/business/t-p/index.ssf?/base/money-0/105747156939410.xml

A hint of destiny was scribbled among the goals in John Diacsuk's eighth-grade yearbook in 1966: become an engineer, go to West Point and fly jetliners.

Who could blame the Teaneck, N.J., youngster? Back then, being a jet jockey was just about the coolest thing in the world.

"The Mercury astronauts of the 1960s were pilots, and shows such as 'Sky King' and '12 O'Clock High' were playing on TV," Diacsuk recalled.

Now, at 6-foot-4 and 240 pounds, Diacsuk has the swagger of Chuck Yeager with his deep-blue American Airlines uniform and salt-and-pepper hair. Four stripes on each sleeve signify he has made it to the top of his profession as an MD-80 captain for the world's largest airline.

Yet his greatest fear these days is landing in the unemployment line. His pay has been cut by almost a fourth because of losses at American that forced unions into concessions worth $1.8 billion.

Since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, two airlines have filed for bankruptcy protection, billions of dollars have been lost, and tens of thousands of jobs have been eliminated. Just last week, pilots at Air Canada agreed to a 15 percent pay cut and 317 layoffs to help save their insolvent airline.

The glamour of the cockpit has turned into a fading vapor trail.

No simulator on Earth could have prepared airline pilots for the latest turbulence. In the past two years, 8,300 pilots have been laid off. Experts say there are 85,000 to 100,000 airline pilots in this country.

Furloughed pilots are usually placed on a recall list so they can be hired back when the economy turns around, but the current downturn could ground many pilots for good.

"It has been the worst economic and employment crisis in the history of the airline business," said John Mazor, a spokesman for the Air Line Pilots Association, the largest pilots union in the country.

So, when Scottie Clark, a captain at United Airlines, hears talk about overpaid pilots, she laughs.

"I've heard that we all make $300,000 a year," Clark said. "I don't think anyone worries about what we make after we've put a plane on the ground in a bad snowstorm when the runway wasn't cleared."

George Hopkins, author of three books on pilot unions and a professor at Western Illinois University in Macomb, Ill., said most pilots aren't in big-money jobs.

"Today, a first officer (co-pilot), depending on seniority, would be hard pressed to make $100,000 a year," Hopkins said. "They only fly 85 hours a month for reasons of fatigue. I defy anyone to say they don't put in a hard day's work."

"What's different about being a pilot now is that you hold your breath about your job and hope the airline holds together," said Diacsuk, 51. "I would bet you half of my co-pilots will be furloughed this year. The bulletin boards are full of houses for sale and cars for sale."

Pilots can't change airlines without losing pay and seniority. A captain such as Diacsuk, with 14 years experience, can earn $130,000 to $150,000 a year. "If I go to another airline, I'll go to the bottom of the seniority list and make $21,000 a year," he said, declining to reveal his salary.

If he stays with American, he could be demoted to first officer -- losing another 21 percent while possibly working longer hours.

Diacsuk, who despite his New Jersey roots speaks to passengers in a Southern twang picked up at Clemson University, said he might spend a 14-hour day flying four legs between cities. The day might include a trip from Newark, N.J., to Chicago, then to St. Louis, back to Chicago and a return flight to Newark.

"You could get 10 of those days a month," he said.

Diacsuk commutes to Newark from Pen Argyl, about 15 miles north of Easton in Pennsylvania where taxes and the cost of living are cheaper than in his home state.

A former Navy helicopter pilot, Diacsuk began training at age 37 to fly jetliners in Dallas when American was cranking out dozens of pilots every month.

"It was like Star Fleet academy," he said.

Not anymore.

"Some pilots are teaching, and some are trying to go back to active duty," he said. "Some will never fly again."

Diacsuk isn't sure how long he'll be with American.

"I have a friend who was a flight attendant, and he is now selling cars," he said. "I'll probably end up selling real estate."
 
Interesting article...I don't know exactly how Mr. Diacsuk pronounces his last name but you can bet he took a lot of flak growing up...
 
I think the pilot career has been losing luster ever since the 50's. It's been a gradual deterioration, with ups and downs, but an inevitable downward trend. There is much less prestige in being a pilot today. Partly, I think, this has to do with the change in the pilot's role and perceived role. If all we are seen as is computer systems managers who simply monitor the automation, we will be paid as such. Back in the day, we were seen as risking our lives on a regular basis and using our skill and experience to stand in the breach and prevent catastrophe. Neither perception is particularly valid, but unfortunately that doesn't matter.
There are too many pilots being trained who, even with apparent lack of traditional stick and rudder, seat-of-yer-pants flying skill, are willing and able to take jobs flying jets for lower and lower pay. Thus, the profession will continue to be degraded.

That said, it's also a cyclical industry, and things have to start getting better sometime, in terms of job creation and growth at least.

Fair winds and blue skies.
 
Another opportunity to kick the dog again....

Regarding the compensation and quality of life issue, perhaps one of the reasons for the decline is the loss of Yankee jobs which results in fewer business people travelling and the subsequent business fares? There is the argument unions became inflexible and unreasonable with work rules. There is also the argument big business is trying to break the unions. Both are true to varying degrees.

However, the brunt of the decline of American business rests with the guberment and big business. Guberment has created a burdensome atmosphere to conduct business which gives cover for big business - in the interest for a short term profit - to conduct their business outside the country (NAFTA, Made in China, etc.). Add some Philadelphia lawyers in the mix and businesses are more than happy to run away. Pretty soon though there won't be too many people able to afford the $85 Nikes. Thank goodness for the TSA, we can spy on each other and get paid for it!
 
Guberment has created a burdensome atmosphere to conduct business which gives cover for big business - in the interest for a short term profit - to conduct their business outside the country

Of course.

We DROVE business from the US.

We made impossible environmental laws that made it too expensive to do heavy manufacturing.

We passed legislation that mandated certain types of employees be hired, causing tension in the ranks and a culture of appearances instead of ablities.

We failed to require that high school grads be able to at least read their diplomas.

Any number of countries will welcome our businesses without any rules, laws, or anything but an eager, hard working, homogenous workforce who will do the job for one tenth the price.

What would YOU do?
 
SDF2BUF2MCO said:
Another opportunity to kick the dog again....

Regarding the compensation and quality of life issue, perhaps one of the reasons for the decline is the loss of Yankee jobs which results in fewer business people travelling and the subsequent business fares? There is the argument unions became inflexible and unreasonable with work rules. There is also the argument big business is trying to break the unions. Both are true to varying degrees.

However, the brunt of the decline of American business rests with the guberment and big business. Guberment has created a burdensome atmosphere to conduct business which gives cover for big business - in the interest for a short term profit - to conduct their business outside the country (NAFTA, Made in China, etc.). Add some Philadelphia lawyers in the mix and businesses are more than happy to run away. Pretty soon though there won't be too many people able to afford the $85 Nikes. Thank goodness for the TSA, we can spy on each other and get paid for it!

You wouldn't happen to want to run for office would you? I'll donate.

I have gotten to where I spend more time looking at country of origin labels than I do price tags. It's getting to be quite disheartening. Even Craftsman tools are being made in China.:-(

regards,
enigma
 
Oh come on guys. You ask a pilot with Jet Blue, Airtran, Southwest, Skywest, Fed Ex or any of the other successful airlines and they tell you this is a great career.

Even me, a "lowly" pilot at ASA, where I am under constant attack by by own union, enjoys the work I do there.

When I spent 14 to 16 (hell, sometimes 20 hours ) a day at work in my previous profession, no one gave a hoot in heck as to fatigue. If the word fatique was brought up you could pretty much bet the next promotion was going to the manager with better endurance. My customers sure did not care if I was "fatigued" and they were downright pleased if the pay was low.

Those who think the flying profession stinks should take a sniff at the real rat race in middle level management. No thanks. I would rather operate nice equipment, work with great folks, have fun and leave it all in ops when I get on the crew bus.

Is this the job a Pan Am pilot had in the 1950's? No. But middle level management is not what it was for IBM employees in the 1950's either. The only person with a better job is Cato Kaelin and don't think he hangs out at the pool, or takes OJ's kids to Micky D's much these days either.
 
I would rather operate nice equipment, work with great folks, have fun and leave it all in ops when I get on the crew bus.

I think the number of pilots who work for the carriers you cited, and have your kind of satisfaction, are a small percentage of the industry of paid pilot flying.

It think that is the point of the post, but I could be wrong.
 
Yes, the "luster" has decreased, however, some degree of admiration will always remain - there simply are not any comparable vocations.
floatflyer99 said:
...this has to do with the change in the pilot's role and perceived role. If all we are seen as is computer systems managers who simply monitor the automation, we will be paid as such. Back in the day, we were seen as risking our lives on a regular basis and using our skill and experience to stand in the breach and prevent catastrophe. Neither perception is particularly valid...
Question for you, floatflyer: When things go bad (weather, aircraft systems, etc.) exactly who is it that "stands in the breach and prevents catastrophe?" I'm thinking it is us. This is what we train for and get paid for. There is no danger of the survivors of United Flight 232 one day thinking that Capt Al Haynes is an overpaid computer systems manager. It may be pop culture - but only until the blatherers become frightened passengers.

As for me, luster or not, I am living my childhood dream - which, thankfully is also my adult/mid-life dream. I can't believe I get paid to do nothing but show up and fly. This profession is so radically different from any other I can think of, I cannot imagine choosing to do anything else. I grieve for my friends who are now furloughed. God willing, the economy will turn around and they will be called back. The stress and frustration have got to be unbearable. Despite all the negatives now plaguing the industry, I choose to fly for as long as I have the opportunity.

The public's romance is gone - mine is intact.
 
Purple Haze:

I agree with your comments wholeheartedly.

As for your question:
You're right, when things go bad, it is still our role to "stand in the breach" and I believe we are ready to do so. There are simply far fewer occasions now when this is necessary. This is a good thing, of course, but it probably contributes to a gradual change in the public's perception of the pilot's job.

I'm quite satisfied with my job, but I still dream at night about flying a -3 on AM-21 or barnstorming with Lindbergh.
 
I think the number of pilots who work for the carriers you cited, and have your kind of satisfaction, are a small percentage of the industry of paid pilot flying.

I'm not sure about this, but don't most employed pilots work at majors? On a sheer numbers scale, most pilots would still be happy. When you add up all the cargo carriers, Southwest, majors etc, there must be over 50,000 pilots employed. Maybe 75,000. The regionals and small freight companies would have far less. Just my guess, but I remember seeing stats similar to these.

On another note, any older doctor will tell you medicine is not the career it used to be.
 
I'm not sure about this, but don't most employed pilots work at majors?

Maybe before 9/11.

I have a feeling, and granted, I've done no other research on this, that if you add up all of the non-major airline flying it would exceed the majors by quite a bit. In my list I would include:

all flight instructors
pilots for air tour operators
cargo pilots
regional pilots
charter pilots
pipeline pilots
bush pilots
fractional pilots

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that enough of a ratio exists between the number of resumes submitted to major airlines every year versus the number of pilots who are hired by those carrriers (when they are hiring) that I have to conclude that 90 percent of pilots are always trying to compete for 10 percent of the jobs. This is even true at non-airline jobs.
 
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Hey, don't feel too bad about it, even Japanese consumers are now buying stuff made in China:) Who whould have thunk that in the 1980s :)
 
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I'm not sure about this, but don't most employed pilots work at majors?
W.C. Fields was right, there IS a sucker born every minute!
 
surfnole said:

On another note, any older doctor will tell you medicine is not the career it used to be.



Explain what you mean by this statement. My best friend is a Dr, his dad was a Dr. The father always says he wished he was just starting out his career, not ending it. The reason, he says, is that technology is absolutely changing the way Dr's work on patients and the money is getting better if you specialize (both did). I came very close to going to Med School but other opportunities arose that I couldn't pass up ( glad I did because what I make now is on par with my best friend, and I don't have to keep any schedules, and I get to fly for myself and my company). I guess God has a plan. Sorry for the rambling..
 
The pilot profession is not losing its luster for me. It is certainly sad of what has happened to the industry and what rookie pilots are being paid. That said, the passion of what I love and aspire to do full time remains.

It's sad but true that things DO come down to money.. ie: marriage, occupation, life in general...

I don't know how people starting out, with school loans and other needs, can live on 19K a year. I'm in my late 20's and giving up my job to head back into a 19K first office position would require taking a 50K pay cut. I simply cannot do it with my loans and obligations.

Seems to me that many of us should become creative and find alternative ways to get back into aviation. I have, by getting our employer to purchase an aircraft... as a business tool for them and to cure my flying bug.



Keep your eyes open and always be looking...:) :D :p
 
This profession is something you will be successful at only if you have an all encompassing, never ending passion to fly.

If you are getting in because you want people with think you are cool because you are a pilot, you are getting in for the wrong reason. You be in for a very rude awakening. I worked with several guys when I was a CFI (Active CFI) who couldn't wait to get the "Bar's & Star's" and walk through the terminal (probably hoping kids would run up to them and ask for their autograph, like in that stupid movie, Catch Me If You Can). Anyhow, all those guys are flying a desk now... no they didn't get furloughed, they quit after a year or two at the Regionals. Found out it isn't as glamourous job as they thought.

Get into the profession because you want to fly, you want to be a professional and you are ready to make the sacrifices required to be successful. Don't get in because you want to give out your autograph or pose for pictures, it just isn't going to happen. It is a job, just a job, nothing more, nothing less... Don't fool yourself.

Don't get me wrong... I love my job, it takes very good care of me financially, I have a great time at work, fly great equipment to great places and work with a good group of guys. But none the less it is, in fact, just a job.
 
Don't get me wrong... I love my job, it takes very good care of me financially, I have a great time at work, fly great equipment to great places and work with a good group of guys. But none the less it is, in fact, just a job.

Not a flamer here, but I couldn't help but note you said everything was great, till you got to your co-workers. Then it was just good. I can relate.
 
Swass,

Glad to hear your friend is doing well in medicine. However, my husband just completed a six year residency (after four years of medical school) and I can tell you from experience medicine is not what it once was. Managed care has seen to that for both physicians as well as patients. Fortunately, there are enough people like my husband who love what they do enough to put up with the b.s. Pretty similar to aviation actually!
 
Explain what you mean by this statement. My best friend is a Dr, his dad was a Dr. The father always says he wished he was just starting out his career, not ending it

Perhaps I should not have generalized all doctors. That perspective comes from my dad. He did not specialize, but became a physician-internal medicine. As he explains it, when he went to med school in the 50s, that was considered the thinking man's doctor. Now he wishes he would have gone into surgery.

His main beef comes from constantly having to fight with the government and insurance companies regarding payment and authorized procedures, and having to hire extra staff to do this. To make big money in that environment, you need to run a numbers game, and he has resisted that. Also, some doctors such as OBGYN quit delivering babies rather than pay the cost of malpractice insurance.

One my friends however is an oral surgeon, and one reason he chose that field is because he doesn't need to deal with insurance nearly as much. He makes big money I think. He mentioned his practice brings in 60K to 80K per month.
 
NAFTA

Timebuilder said:
We DROVE business from the US.

We made impossible environmental laws that made it too expensive to do heavy manufacturing.

We passed legislation that mandated certain types of employees be hired, causing tension in the ranks and a culture of appearances instead of ablities.

We failed to require that high school grads be able to at least read their diplomas.

Any number of countries will welcome our businesses without any rules, laws, or anything but an eager, hard working, homogenous workforce who will do the job for one tenth the price . . . .
Don't forget about NAFTA. That was well thought-out, too.

I second Timebuilder heartily on his literacy (or lack thereof) comment.

I never got into professional aviation for the glamor. I got into it for the same reason as most people - I liked flying airplanes. It was never for the money, or lack thereof, either. As long as I could pay my bills and was compensated fairly, I was a happy man and happy with what I was doing. Of course, the BS at times was more than one can stand, but, when it comes right down to it, there is BS in every job.
 
W.C. Fields was right, there IS a sucker born every minute!

From

http://www.nbaa.org/@@2AXvBS-FwQEF/factbook/2001/section4.htm

The pilot population in the United States remains fairly stable. Numbers for 1999 show that over 120,000 aviators possess a commercial pilot certificate, and more than 137,000 have an airline transport pilot certificate. The vast majority of business aircraft pilots possess the most advanced pilot licenses.

If the majors and large cargo carriers employ 75,000 pilots of the 137K pilots that hold an ATP license, then half of those ATP pilots would have a good career going. This does not include corporate, fractional and regional pilots who enjoy a good salary. So..... perhaps most pilots past the flight instructor level aren't starving.
 
I don't mean to keep flicking you in the gonads, but you are mixing up your own numbers...

I'm not sure about this, but don't most employed pilots work at majors?

The pilot population in the United States remains fairly stable. Numbers for 1999 show that over 120,000 aviators possess a commercial pilot certificate, and more than 137,000 have an airline transport pilot certificate.

That means according to you...out of 257,000 pilots that can be paid to make a living, 75,000 work for major airlines. That isn't anywhere mathematically close to major airlines being the "employers of most pilots".

Also those numbers in that magazine article you are reading are 1999 numbers. 1999 numbers.
 
If the majors and large cargo carriers employ 75,000 pilots of the 137K pilots that hold an ATP license, then half of those ATP pilots would have a good career going. This does not include corporate, fractional and regional pilots who enjoy a good salary. So..... perhaps most pilots past the flight instructor level aren't starving.

First, post-9/11, I don't think you have 75,000 pilots employed by majors and large cargo carriers. Second, paid pilot positions don't always need an ATP, so that is going to throw off the discussion in another misleading way.

Here's where we started:
I'm not sure about this, but don't most employed pilots work at majors?

The simple answer is no, they don't. For every major pilot who has a job there are literally a couple of hundred guys with a commercial ticket that would like to have that job, mostly because that major job has historically brought the best lifestyle one can find as a working pilot.

Now, consider the unprecedented decline in passenger enplanements, the tossing out of labor agreements, the use of low-pay alter ego carriers and the inability of even a flight instructor to find a job without canvassing the entire country.

Does this sound like most pilots are having a satisfactory experience in their career? No. Some have held onto a job, and some have been fortunate enough to find work at a fractional or regional. Most pilots who are qualified for commercial work have not found those jobs, and many more furloughed pilots will never see their old cockpit again. Some will find work, but many will be passed over as being overqualified or be seen as likely to become discontented.

In fact, I think most pilots are either looking for work (my current specialty) or looking for a job that will pay them a wage that they can feel satisfied with. A few of us will find that satisfaction, and the rest of us will simply take what comes.
 
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The worst day in the cockpit is...and will always be...better than the best day in a 9-5 cubical. I worked the 9-5 racket...and switched to being a poor F/O. The training was difficult, but it was well worth it. The pay s#cks, but the days off, and the comraderie is why I love to fly.

Someone once asked me why I switched careers...I told them, "every time I heard a jet, I had an involuntary reaction to look-up." Now I look down on the 9-5 racket...it feels good.

If I get furloughed, I will always look positively on my airline experience...my cubicle will be the one filled with pictures of Dorniers.....

House
 
The simple answer is no, they don't. For every major pilot who has a job there are literally a couple of hundred guys with a commercial ticket that would like to have that job, mostly because that major job has historically brought the best lifestyle one can find as a working pilot.

Accorinding to the article

120,000 aviators possess a commercial pilot certificate, and more than 137,000 posess an ATP

I am not in the industry, so I don't understand how there can be more ATP certificates than commerical. I would think every ATP would need a commercial certificate...but thats another story.

Assuming there are 50K working for majors and FedEx, UPS, etc (Delta alone has 9000), there is no way their could be 200 commercial pilots looking for each of those jobs. Only 120,000 pilots hold a commercial certificate. While those are 1999 numbers, the pilot population has remained constant over the years. If anything, those holding certificates has been declining. Perhaps each major, decent airline and cargo carrier has 20K resumes on file because each one of those pilots aspiring for a decent job has their resume in at every airlline.

I'm not trying to start a flame ware here, this is something I have wondered about. I know the career is very difficult. On the other hand, this board is dominated by CFIs, regional pilots etc. aspiring to the majors. There are very few non-furloughed major pilots posting here, so perhaps the perspective is skewed on this board. Maybe its only the military guys that don't have the all the career problems.
 
Hi Surf,

I would say that TimeBuilder is closer to the mark. Your numbers may be a bit misleading for the following reasons:

1. Not all pilots who have a commercial/ATP utilize them for commercial purposes. Many simply achieve the rating for personal improvement of their piloting skills or better rates for insurance. I would bet that a sizable percentage of commercial/atp holders NEVER fly for hire.

2. Many commercial/ATP holders are flight instructors, some of whom, for one reason or another, don't want to fly commercially.

3. Don't forget, pilot certificates don't expire, so I'm sure a large number of ticket holders are retired. A better number to use would be the number of 2nd or 1st class medicals issued, although even that number is skewed by reasons 1 and 2. Don't forget to subtract those who have lost their medical.

4. The numbers you cite are for ALL commercial/ATP certificates in ALL types of aircraft. Subtract the number of rotorcraft, glider, lighter-than-air and powered-lift certificates from your total.

Probably the best way to figure the total number of airline and/or airline bound pilots is to find the number of commercial/ATP certificates with AMEL ratings AND active 1st or 2nd class medicals. Even then, your number is going to be fat, because sometimes people just like the challenge of getting those tickets.

I would say that out of every 10 people who start the road (student starts), maybe 3 people get to the majors/regionals, but thats just a guess from personal experience.

Best,
Nu


PS Hey Timebuilder...did I miss an episode? Arn't you still flying the Lear?
 
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The worst day in the cockpit is...and will always be...better than the best day in a 9-5 cubical

My sentiments exactly. If I couldn't do this I'd drive trucks. And I've felt this way ever since the right seat of the BE-200.

I hate to drone on about the old days, but when I started flying, it was taking 5 years to make Brasilia left seat at ASA. 10 years for ATR, and there were no jets. Nobody was hiring except SWA, and there were over 100 Eastern guys in my hometown alone (BHM) looking for corporate jobs. I met a guy who had retired from flying F-4's and was driving a courier truck, waiting for a slot to fly an Aerostar. And he had been waiting 7 months.

Things will get better - they always have. As Pancho said in the Right Stuff, some pud-knocker's got to fly those things.
 
PS Hey Timebuilder...did I miss an episode? Arn't you still flying the Lear?

Yes, you missed that episode.

I was laid off on May 11th (I think...no May calendar in front of me..) and that was two weeks before my 8410 was due to expire. I wasn't able to find a job lead until June, and no one wanted to spend the $2,000 or so to get me current again.

So, I'm finishing off my ATP, and getting ready to go down to SimCom to get my type and a PIC check for a guy that flies out of TEB, a place I used to fly in and out of a couple of times a week. That will probably take place in August.

Right now I'm working with a producer in Manhattan and preparing to record a new voiceover demo to get some more work in between flights. Each session is the cost of an hour in a new SP, and the train adds another $90. Whew!

Another guy I know who is doing plastering instead of flying will probably get together with me to rent a Seneca for an hour to go do some approaches. I got to do some instructing a couple of months ago when he was working on his ATP. It sure wasn't like a Lear.

Thanks for asking.
 
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Hi NuGuy, those figures for Commercial and ATP certificates listed by the 1999 NBAA link that surfnhole posted probably had active medicals. To see what numbers where posted you'll have to scroll back and click on his link where alot of statistics were being bantered about. I can't imagine that the NBAA would be counting non-medical'd pilots in a pilot job survey.

The only numbers not on that link are the actual numbers of "MAJOR AIRLINE" pilots, which surfnhole has guessed at 75,000 to 50,000.
 

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