Pilot bill passes house

[stupidpilot]

I have a prediction: Many logbooks will be lied in very soon.

Ouch! You are probably so right it's not even funny!

 

[ultrarunner]

Yeah, but those folks are so stupid, they will be outed quite quickly!

 

[NuGuy]

I have a prediction: Many logbooks will be lied in very soon.

Heyas,

How is getting to ATP times any different from the years and years when the defacto minimums at regionals/commuters/whatever where at ATP minimums or higher?

This little bubble where the regionals hired with below 1200 hours was an extremely brief episode in the overall history of things. Traditionally the minimums to get hired have been around ATP minimums anyway.

Building time to the ATP has been the traditional right of passage for all civilian pilots. Quit whining about it and get busy....

Nu

 

[dondk]

I think the bill is a good idea, I doubt it will pass "as is". You can bet the lobbyist will be all over the senators to get some amendments that loosen up some of the language to allow schools and bottom feeder airlines access to that group of pilots that they need to survive.

The bigger fear with this bill is the pilot records, for a regional pilot your company can effectively end your career growth with some discipline. Anyone above a regional will have the ability to look you up on the web before even interviewing you. Bust a line check or dequal at bottom feeder regional and your career could be over.

I am all for raising the bar coming in the front door, although at the same time if the government wants that bar raised will, they be compensated accordingly? 1500+ with extra qualifications should equal more than 20 bucks an hour.

Regardless, by the time they change the reg's, tighten up training/qualifications and then realize they can't replace those that will be retiring, I'd bet you see the age 65 go to 70.

Great bill, I don't think it is that realistic for how our industry is

 

[GogglesPisano]

The bigger fear with this bill is the pilot records, for a regional pilot your company can effectively end your career growth with some discipline. Anyone above a regional will have the ability to look you up on the web before even interviewing you. Bust a line check or dequal at bottom feeder regional and your career could be over.

How is this any different from PRIA -- another bit of legislation which was born from a commuter crash?

 

[ultrarunner]

I think the bill is a good idea, I doubt it will pass "as is". You can bet the lobbyist will be all over the senators to get some amendments that loosen up some of the language to allow schools and bottom feeder airlines access to that group of pilots that they need to survive.

You give too much credit that bottom feeders have a strong lobby.


[/QUOTE]The bigger fear with this bill is the pilot records, for a regional pilot your company can effectively end your career growth with some discipline. Anyone above a regional will have the ability to look you up on the web before even interviewing you. Bust a line check or dequal at bottom feeder regional and your career could be over.

I'm ok with all that! Right off the bat you prevent the BUF accident.

[/QUOTE]Regardless, by the time they change the reg's, tighten up training/qualifications and then realize they can't replace those that will be retiring, I'd bet you see the age 65 go to 70.

Great bill, I don't think it is that realistic for how our industry is[/QUOTE]

Normally I'd agree legslation like this would take some time, but my opinion is that this will be relatively fast-tracked. The travel public is a much strong lobby.

 

[dondk]

How is this any different from PRIA -- another bit of legislation which was born from a commuter crash?

C'mon, I know I can name at least a dozen pilots who were hired with questionable PRIA's. The point I am making is they got the interview and had the opportunity to explain what the PRIA "may hold".

With the new legislation, a potential employer can look you up before selecting you for an interview. They can disqualify you before even giving you a chance to explain.

PRIA is good, but obviously it has flaws, that is why the new legislation to fix the flaws.

 

[ultrarunner]

I agree...PRIA isn't good enough. This legislation should take care of that issue.

 

[Quiet Flight]

I'm lazy today. What is "MPL"?

 

[dondk]

Normally I'd agree legslation like this would take some time, but my opinion is that this will be relatively fast-tracked. The travel public is a much strong lobby.

I agree the traveling public is a much stronger lobby, how many of the traveling public still remember the CMR incident in LEX? My point is give it some time and the public forgets. BUF could have been prevented, so could have LEX.

 

[ultrarunner]

I'm lazy today. What is "MPL"?

Multicrew Pilot License.

Here you go:

http://alpa.org/portals/alpa/pressro...lot_9-2009.pdf

 

[Dornier 335]

No sorry, ultrarunner. It's Milf Pilot's License.

 

[Lear70]

Don, I'm sorry, but after turning my head upside down to get a better view of your avatar, I couldn't read anything else you actually typed...



(jk, buddy)

 

[densoo]

(2) have received flight training, academic training, or operational experience that will prepare a pilot, at a minimum, to--

(A) function effectively in a multipilot environment;

I wonder how this will impact the hiring of military single seat pilots? Will they need to prove this before getting hired? or will initial training cover it.

 

[felixf16]

I wonder how this will impact the hiring of military single seat pilots? Will they need to prove this before getting hired? or will initial training cover it.

One of the greatest myths in aviation is that military fighter guys are not exposed to, nor well practiced in, CRM techniques.

Other than limited cross-country flying, single-seat flyers function almost exclusively in "multi pilot" environments. Every meaningful mission is flown with a multiple of four or more jets. Thus, the need for effective CRM - and the necessity to overcome the challenges thereto - are merely enhanced when you cannot simply turn across the cockpit and see the crania of those with whom you are flying...

Cheers,

Felix

 

[dougdrvr]

One of the greatest myths in aviation is that military fighter guys are not exposed to, nor well practiced in, CRM techniques.

Other than limited cross-country flying, single-seat flyers function almost exclusively in "multi pilot" environments. Every meaningful mission is flown with a multiple of four or more jets. Thus, the need for effective CRM - and the necessity to overcome the challenges thereto - are merely enhanced when you cannot simply turn across the cockpit and see the crania of those with whom you are flying...

Cheers,

Felix

CRM? What happened to "2","3", "4", or "MAYDAY"?

 

[CTid]

That's "Bingo, Mayday, and Lead you're on fire"

 

[Oh-ryan]

One of the greatest myths in aviation is that military fighter guys are not exposed to, nor well practiced in, CRM techniques.

Other than limited cross-country flying, single-seat flyers function almost exclusively in "multi pilot" environments. Every meaningful mission is flown with a multiple of four or more jets. Thus, the need for effective CRM - and the necessity to overcome the challenges thereto - are merely enhanced when you cannot simply turn across the cockpit and see the crania of those with whom you are flying...

Cheers,

Felix

Disagree slightly. Single seat guys will never be able to polish the critical CRM skill of not choking the crap out of the guy sitting next to you. Pivotal to this CRM skill is the equally important skill of avoiding getting the crap choked out of you by the guy sitting next to you.

 

[Lear70]

*snicker*

 

[pilotyip]

We always wondered what kind of pilot liked to take off from the boat, single engine, on-fire, and low fuel state. And that was a good as it would get.

 

[waveflyer]

I'd say it's a myth that fighter pilots are qualified for major airline pilot positions. They survive- but it's a hook-up.

 

[Monster Buck]

An ATP should be required for any airline job. Passengers deserve qualified pilots flying their aircraft. Buffalo is a good example of hiring minimumly qualified pilots.

Buffalo wasn't really about hiring minimally qualified pilots, its more about the fact that people don't get fired anymore for failing multiple check rides. The sim guys did their job, he failed many times. After that....a little retrain and back to the line. If you suck and fail multiple check rides....it should be bye bye!

 

[CTid]

It would be highly unusual to be able to utter all 3 at once. AF mx was usually fairly good. A wingie might go several missions without independently saying anything, unless he consistently bingoed out 1st. Then he'd get hammered for poor fuel management.

 

[SIG600]

That's "Bingo, Mayday, and Lead you're on fire"

Actually it's "two, you're on fire, I've got the fat chick" are the only things you want to hear from your wingman.

CRM is actually an annual requirement for us, administered by CRM facilitators that are certified by the Naval Safety Center (speaking for the US Navy). While it's not exactly the same in practice as it is in the 121 world, the basic principles are the same.

When there is an emergency within a section or division, everyone is backing him up with the book, someone will take the radios and let him manage his own jet, facilitate with ATC, work with base or the ship, talk to reps on the boat, etc. It's VERY much a team effort, anyone that thinks otherwise doesn't know single seat aviation.

That said, going from a single seat jet, to a multicrew a/c can be a mind shift for guys, especially those that have flown 2-3000 hours of single seat and are used to doing everything on their own. Although it's not impossible, but it's on both crew members to not only work together, but debrief any issues you had so both of you can get better.

 

[Gunfighter]

Actually it's "two, you're on fire, I've got the fat chick" are the only things you want to hear from your wingman.

I've said the first two and heard the third. My wingman set the bar low early in the night.

You actually learn a lot about CRM when you are teaching a pilot to fly an airplane that you aren't in. Or even flying with an experienced wingman. You fly your airplane and monitor, instruct or evaluate from your own fighter. You've got to learn to manage cockpit resources in several cockpits not just your own. Many of the skills do transition.

On the transition from fighters to airlines...

During the maneuvers validation, we get to the single engine rejected landing and subsequent single engine landing. On the go around, the evaluator freezes the sim, looks at me and asks "Single seat fighter guy, right?"

Me: "Yes Sir"
Evaluator to Captain: "Your well aged heart gave out with the #1 engine"
Evaluator to Me: "You've been waiting for this all morning haven't you?"
Me: "You mean I get to fly, run the checklists and talk on the radio? It feels strangely familiar."

Fortunately I had a several instructors who did an outstanding job explaining the similarities and differences of Captain and F/O compared to Flight Lead and Wingman. That helped me out the other 99% of the time when the captain wasn't dead. Once you define the roles and responsibilities it's easy to apply lessons from the multi-airplane environment to the multi-pilot environment.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I did a little bit of single pilot-airplane stuff in training. I was told several times I should not be using my checklist for anything. Different than my multi-crew military flying.

cliff
NBO