Piedmont Upgrades

[fowingman]

Piedmont from what i heard (good source within clt trn department) will be starting upgrades starting in june and going for a few months around 40 - 50 upgrades. possibly connected to the flowthrough that hopefully will be signed soon.

 

[jellynuts]

does that mean that they will be hiring more f/o's? what is a flowthrough?

 

[fowingman]

they are hiring fo in may/june from what the official memos are saying around 15 f.o's . Flowthrough= get to fly for mainline without interviewing (very VERY basic definition). pretty much (again very simplistic definition) when mainline needs to hire they will look to who they have a flowthrough agreement.. the reason they are wanting to upgrade so many is becuase the junior captains will go to mainline, whereas the senior captains will most likely stay at PDT (why would a 55 year old want to to go to f.o pay & crappy schedule).

 

[ceo_of_the_sofa]

Who else besides PDT is working on a flowthrough to mainline? PSA?

 

[fowingman]

PSA is the other possibility, i have heard though that PSA doens't stand a good chance of getting a flowthrough with mainline. apparently the communication between PSA and mainline are doing horrible

 

[Crzipilot]

Possible flow through??? Uhmm...there's still 1800 of us out on the street from mainline.
As to the negotiation of the flow through, dunno how they can seperate PDT and PSA, as the flow through was indicitive of agreeing to the provisions of LOA 91..... If anyone should have a flow through it should be PSA, as they took furloughed AAA guys, and PDT refused to take their own back from MDA...

 

[nethan]

I'm thinking the flowthrough (which is most likely a pipedream at this point anyways) would be based of the CEL and not a specific WO. That said, the CEL is significantly smaller then I thought it was. Also, with a lot of the furloughed guys expected to bypass the right seat of the 190 (again... more rumor) it in theory could be possible for people from the CEL to head up while there are still furloughees on the street. Again, all speculation that doesn't really apply in the real world until something is released.

 

[Flyer1015]

Flow through?

Why is anyone excited about a flowthrough program?

Ask Eagle pilots about how that works.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Possible flow through??? Uhmm...there's still 1800 of us out on the street from mainline.
As to the negotiation of the flow through, dunno how they can seperate PDT and PSA, as the flow through was indicitive of agreeing to the provisions of LOA 91..... If anyone should have a flow through it should be PSA, as they took furloughed AAA guys, and PDT refused to take their own back from MDA...

And how many of thoe 1800 are going to go back? Not many I'd wager. The flowthrough is a fact, whether you like it or not. It was a part of the restructuring agreement... Just becuase PDT didn't (actually got f'd out of) the jets and didn't have any J4J guys doesn't change that fact.

As for the MDA folks, they were offered positions at the bottom of the list until the flushback language was written and signed. There was no provision for this when they left. Caveat emptor. Besides they will be senior to any PDT guys who flow anyhow, so who gives a sh#t.

 

[Crzipilot]

You might be surprised how many actually go back. With the bypass provisions allowing guys to stay where they are while they see how the industry turns....who knows. Most I've talked to say they aren't going back...albiet they also haven't resigned their number, as they don't want to burn that bridge, say in a year or two it's rosier over here than it is where they are.....
As for the flowthrough. Actually I'm all for it. Flow up and flow back. Unfortunately most pilots look out for none other than #1....that all we end up doing is screwing each other..... For instance, the PDT guys were offered positions back at the bottom of the list? 1st year pay or what? and this was because the guys currently on the list didn't want to loose their positions they had gained by them flowing up?? Meanwhile, yes they will flow up sr. to the PDT guys, as the AAA MEC put them on the bottom of their list, which I believe was done because they had no home with the furloughs at MDA...

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

You might be surprised how many actually go back. With the bypass provisions allowing guys to stay where they are while they see how the industry turns....who knows. Most I've talked to say they aren't going back...albiet they also haven't resigned their number, as they don't want to burn that bridge, say in a year or two it's rosier over here than it is where they are.....
As for the flowthrough. Actually I'm all for it. Flow up and flow back. Unfortunately most pilots look out for none other than #1....that all we end up doing is screwing each other..... For instance, the PDT guys were offered positions back at the bottom of the list? 1st year pay or what? and this was because the guys currently on the list didn't want to loose their positions they had gained by them flowing up?? Meanwhile, yes they will flow up sr. to the PDT guys, as the AAA MEC put them on the bottom of their list, which I believe was done because they had no home with the furloughs at MDA...

I agree, you never really know. But for a PDT guy, a flow is better than nothing... Some hope beats none at all.

As for the MDA guys, I am all for them realizing the benefits of their decision to go to MDA. They ought to have seniority over us WO folks, its only fair. However, we should not be penalized for taking the "risk" of declining MDA and staying put. The MDA pilots, some anyway, want to have their cake and eat it too. They are jumping years worth of seniority, and that ought to be enough. As for the MDA pilots being offered positions at first year pay, you have to remember there was no agreement about flushbacks in force and the PDT MEC had a responsibility to protect the pilots that they represent. Under a flow/flush agreement, I am sure the furloughed MDA pilots would be treated more equitably.

 

[Crzipilot]

Personally I think it was smoke and mirrors, where No PDT/PSA individual should have been able to flow up without the Mysterious LOA (TBD) listed in LOA 91 was actually determined and finalized and signed. Instead, as usual pilots looked at the immediate near term gain, and forgot about unfinished business. As things crumbled, PDT pulled the ace out of the hole, and stood firm on.....what flow back??? We didn't agree on any flowback. Which on a technicality, they never did. Oh well......

 

[Northern Lights]

Piedmont from what i heard (good source within clt trn department) will be starting upgrades starting in june and going for a few months around 40 - 50 upgrades. possibly connected to the flowthrough that hopefully will be signed soon.

Just out of curiosity, what is the approximate DOH of the most junior captains there?

 

[trainer8]

And how many of thoe 1800 are going to go back? Not many I'd wager. The flowthrough is a fact, whether you like it or not. It was a part of the restructuring agreement... Just becuase PDT didn't (actually got f'd out of) the jets and didn't have any J4J guys doesn't change that fact.

As for the MDA folks, they were offered positions at the bottom of the list until the flushback language was written and signed. There was no provision for this when they left. Caveat emptor. Besides they will be senior to any PDT guys who flow anyhow, so who gives a sh#t.

Totally fluid situation with lots of variables. Like this: Cost of a barrel of oil; A possible new retirement age from Congress; seniority list integration AAA/AWA; New contract...just to name a few. As to flow back, when LOA 91 was signed, no one ever thought the CEL would move up to AAA. Weren't we all surprised? The consensus then was any flowback would be to original seat and seniority. The protection that is mentioned of pilot jobs at the WO was already in the consensus as the position would only be awarded if their was a vacancy. The proposal we saw at AAA was a new DOH if a CEL flowed back, i.e., it was a J4J style proposal with APL/CEL longevity. That pissed off some folks. The ghost numbers went away. It's possible they are gone for good.

T8

 

[trainer8]

The MDA pilots, some anyway, want to have their cake and eat it too. They are jumping years worth of seniority, and that ought to be enough.

Exactly which piece of cake are you speaking of? Most of the CEL guys I know made career decisions to come here (MDA), many taking 50% paycuts and lousy medical benefits. You make it sound as if the move was premeditated, that they knew of the 2nd AAA bankruptcy, and that they knew of impending furloughs (which by the way, MDA will cease operations this month). MDA was to have 85 E-170s with options for E-190s.

The move to MDA was based on seniority. Most of the senior PDT/ALG pilots passed going because of their pay and position and medical benefits. They were wise to do so. The pilots who left, took the pay cuts, took the lousy benefits, and made some sacrifices that the others passed on. I know of pilots, former Captains, who now qualify for food stamps. When MDA was sold and furloughs were announced, the PDT NC decided that those original years of seniority and positions were no longer available to flow back to. Is this the cake you speak of?

As a result of the MDA pilots being unified as a pilot group and keeping pressure on the AAA MEC by hiring outside counsel to represent their DFR rights; by electing their pilots to positions on the MEC that initially wouldn't even recognize them as a pilot group and whose members (some) are still occasionaly openly hostile toward them, they have obtained AAA seniority numbers and are officialy AAA Pilots. Even with that, there is the threat of being sacrificed on the alter of '"merger politics." That fat lady hasn't sung, yet. It's amazing what 325 pilots can do when they are unified. Imagine?

So do you think that PDT/PSA pilots should flow up to AAA ahead of those pilots who made those sacrifices? Do you really think they jumped seniority?

T8

 

[WSurf]

So do you think that PDT/PSA pilots should flow up to AAA ahead of those pilots who made those sacrifices? Do you really think they jumped seniority?

T8

Trainer! You and Lear have beat this dead horse long enough! You gambled going to MDA, I could have made the jump but didn't! I didn't want to go over there while being close to upgrading at PDT. Remember the website? We all had one of 3 choices.... 1)MDA-First Call (or FO) 2) MDA- Captain or 3rd choice (Wait for a mainline Class date. Many of use chose to wait for MDA Captain. So whats your problem with that? So many of ALG folks went because they said..... 'no way do we want to work at PDT'.. that and the fact that MDA was a taste of being a mainline pilot!
You guys have been rewarded already for you dumb a$$ gamble... So be happy! However I do feel that if there is a flowthru that all CEL people should be put in there orginal slots. The choice wasn't, go to MDA now or lose your CEL postions.....
This has been so played out it is tiring! Just let this work its way out! This profession we all have chosen sucks anyway....

 

[Sig]

Crzi: Now let me think this through so my rusted neurons can actually fire a time or two... You fully acknowledge the LOA #TBD (PDQ BLABLABLA) wasn't in place, and STILL isn't?

And I think you can agree that nobody wants ANYONE on the street anywhere?

So how were we supposed to bring back the MDA pilots? Using what protocol? And understanding that the last upgrade was June of LAST YEAR, what positions would they take?

Bump/flush? No way. No way. No way.

But how were we supposed to do it, and how did I prevent them from coming back?

 

[Crzipilot]

Well first off, I'm sure there was some discussion on the LOA (TBD) I.E. intent as to how it would work. One would have to go back to negotiators notes for that.
And agree, don't want to see anyone put on the street.

Bump/Flush, Welll never agreed to that. If you want to look at a true flow through, those that went to MDA created postions for those to upgrade...no?? (not sure so it's a question more than a fact) So those which upgraded due to the sr. ones leaving, I'd have to think would be subject to a possible downgrade to f/o. does it suck, yah, but then there's the dark side of a true flow through. Should they put people on the street no, but as attrition continues, then those should be brought back to a relative position as to when they left. I.E. #50 capt decides not to goto MDA, but 10 people Sr. to him do. He moves up 10 numbers, and 10 upgrade. MDA furloughs, those come back, relative, pushing #50 back down 10 spots, so net net he loses nothing. those guys that moved up get moved back down. Obviously this is an abbreviated version of what i'm trying to say, but it's late and tired.

In the end look further in the future than 1-3 years. Say in 10 years the majority of the CEL flows up. and say in 15 yrs we have a another 9/11 or something similar causing a downturn as we are experiencing, with cut backs and such. And guess what, it's time for you to flow down. Where do you want to go??? relative postion of where you left. Or the answer that, well you left to go to the greener pasture, it didn't work out...sorry, your screwed go to the bottom as 1st year f/o.......thanks for playin?

Oh and let me add, not sure if I answered. As to how you were to do it....well again, the flow back relative, with opening occuring due to attrition, allowing them to come back in a timely fashion without having to put anyone on the street.

 

[Sig]

Oh and let me add, not sure if I answered. As to how you were to do it....well again, the flow back relative, with opening occuring due to attrition, allowing them to come back in a timely fashion without having to put anyone on the street.

Crzi, I couldn't possibly agree more.

The only problem with one of your previous paragraphs is that you modeled a bi-directional flow (the captain, #50, felt a net loss of zero when the ten above moved back and forth), but you left out the idea that ten at the bottom have to go somehow to let that happen. I think you're not advocating that at all, and that's good.

I'm 100% for a bidirectional flow agreement, and I've explicitly said so on here and elsewhere. Heck, I'll be a 7 year FO here... right before the doors close. Delaying my schmuckgrade is no big deal; but I (we) refuse to accept downgrades, base moves, or furlough to accomodate. What's left? Openings as they occur through attrition. When's that? Shoot, I dunno. Lots of weird goings on around here on the seniority list, but factomatic number 3: There are at least two forced-move upgrades due to the base closures, and I don't know if they're even getting trained yet- let alone any upgrade slots available for any of us here.

 

[doug_or]

I'd heard the forced move upgrades would be in the May class from a few people. No idea if this is actualy true.

 

[Sig]

I'd heard the forced move upgrades would be in the May class from a few people. No idea if this is actualy true.

Whiiiiiiiiiiiiiich brings us back to square zero: There aren't any (CA) positions available, granting out the newhires that have come on board lately.

Could the newhire slots go to MDA guys? I guess so, but not. Before. The LOA. Is. Ratified.

This was an ALPA cockup; to be (mostly) fair nobody saw MDA going away like that so tabling the back-flow portion isn't as much of a culpability issue as it is a crummy, nasty series of events. Should it be fixed? Absolutely.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

So do you think that PDT/PSA pilots should flow up to AAA ahead of those pilots who made those sacrifices? Do you really think they jumped seniority?

T8

T8...

Go back and re-read my post homey. I said that the MDA CEL guys SHOULD... repeat SHOULD... realize the benefits of going to MDA, i.e. being senior at mainline to the other CEL folks who chose to stay behind. I don't think I can be more clear than that. I think your "unified MDA" attitude is getting in the way of your reading comprehension.

I also said that I, as a pilot who remained behind, should realize the benefits of MY decision... That is, not lose position at PDT because MDA didn't work out so hot for you.

You are still coming out way ahead if US makes it, so look long term in quit your b*tchin'.

 

[trainer8]

T8...

Go back and re-read my post homey. I said that the MDA CEL guys SHOULD... repeat SHOULD... realize the benefits of going to MDA, i.e. being senior at mainline to the other CEL folks who chose to stay behind. I don't think I can be more clear than that. I think your "unified MDA" attitude is getting in the way of your reading comprehension.

You speak, then, out of two sides of the same mouth. You also accused CEL pilots of "jumping seniority," a serious accusation. Maybe it is you who should re-read your own post.

You are still coming out way ahead if US makes it, so look long term in quit your b*tchin'.

No problem, "Homey," just defended myself and others from your false accusations.

T8

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

You speak, then, out of two sides of the same mouth. You also accused CEL pilots of "jumping seniority," a serious accusation. Maybe it is you who should re-read your own post.


No problem, "Homey," just defended myself and others from your false accusations.

T8

There was no accusation there at all... I think you took me well out of context. You are getting ahead (i.e. "jumping") of all the Piedmont pilots at mainline. As I have said, many times as a matter of fact, that I don't have a problem with that. Reap the benefits of your choice! Have at it! Just don't expect super-seniority back at PDT in the event of a flush.

I think you are looking for a fight where there isn't one. Move along, nothing to see here.

 

[NCFlyer]

As has been discussed many times before, there are many PDT pilots that believed the MDA pilots that were previous ALG or PDT pilots should have been able to BID back to an OPEN position at PDT after their furlough at MDA. That position should be awarded based on their CEL seniority. There shouldn't have been any current PDT pilot lose his/her seat because of a MDA pilot returning to PDT. Just like the CEL pilots could bid MDA only when there was an opening.

As has been stated before, what the pilot group wanted as a whole was irrelevant. PDT management didn't want to let the pilots return, and there was no written language or protocol to facilitate their return.

This has be discussed to death. We should leave it there.

 

[WSurf]

Like I said... its been beatin too freakin death...... Who the hell cares!!! If we got a flowthur great, if not... so what! Look at the US Airways pay rates, you can go to Airtran and do better. None of the J4J guys are gonna take the FO slots on the 190's... so all the CEL guys at MDA will continue to be Fo's on the 190's for awhile. They (US Airways) have one of the worst contracts out of the top big airlines. 'It is what it is...... no more no less'!!! Looks like PDT will be around for awhile, get your PIC time and move on. There are much better options then US Airways anyway..... Good Luck to all!!!