PIC time (help for a military pilot)..

mudkow60

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Ok... please don't flame me.


I was looking thru the definitions of PIC time in the FAR/AIM. I am a military helo pilot and I had a quick question.

When I was totalling up my times for a rating I was getting, the person at the airport said that I could count all my helo time as PIC time if it was after I was checked out and qualified for that helicopter. Is this true?

Thanks.
 

midlifeflyer

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No need to flame. Military logging rules and civilian FAA logging rules are very different. The FAA rules allow logging of command time under circumstances in which you are not in command.

I don't know enough about the military logging rules to be much help, but if no one else can help either, you might take a look here: http://logbook.navalaviator.net/

This guy wrote a free logbook program for navy and air force pilots that apparently also puts things in the proper FAA columns.
 

mudkow60

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Thanks. That looks like a neat program.


The reason why I was asking is that I have approx. 1400 helo hours. The Navy logs First Pilot time, Second Pilot time, and Aircraft Commander time. As I was told, if you are rated in that helo, you can log all of the flight time as PIC time in the civilian log book (or resume, as is my case). I was just wondering if this is true. Seems to hold weight against how the regs. define PIC.
 

skiddriver

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Mudkow,

Unfortunately, the person at the airport is wrong.

The following regards submitting military time to the FAA for the purposes of qualifying for FAA ratings. Doc's FAR website has a lot of discussions around this subject, and good references given in the discussions. Use the search mode: http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/

The rule of thumb is that you either have to be the assigned aircraft commander for the flight, or you have to actually be twiddling the sticks. Specifically:

You can log all AC time as PIC.

When not assigned as the AC for a flight, you can still log all FPT as PIC if:
1) You are a rated military aviator (some exceptions when you can log flight school time as PIC, see below).
2) You are AC rated in the aircraft (some exceptions here too, see below).

You cannot log CPT as PIC if you are not the AC on the flight. It doesn't matter if you are rated as an AC or not.

Exceptions:

Flight school time:
1) You can always log solo time as PIC.
2) You can log FPT as PIC before you get your wings, providing you hold an FAA rating for the aircraft category and class, and providing the aircraft does not require a type rating (unless you hold that FAA type rating). So if you had an FAA SEL rating when you were in primary, you could log all your T-34 FPT as PIC.

PIC time if you aren't AC rated:
1) You can always log solo time as PIC.
2) If you are a rated military aviator, and are flying an aircraft that does not require an FAA type rating, and you hold the appropriate FAA category and class rating, you can log FPT as PIC. So if you got your FAA rotary wing ratings sometime after your first helicopter AC check, and then snagged a left seat ride in a UH-1N (small helicopter not requiring a type rating) you could log the FPT as PIC.

Times you can't log FPT as PIC:
1) You aren't AC rated and you don't hold the required FAA category, class, and type rating (as applicable). The CH-46 has a civilian type rating required to act as PIC, so you couldn't log FPT in it as PIC as a non-AC unless you held that FAA rating.
 

MTpilot

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As far as submitting military time for FAA ratings, I think he covered that pretty well above. As far as putting stuff on your resume, If you are appropriatly rated for the aircraft you can "log" it as PIC. I have no experience with the military (other than the freedom I enjoy) but I would say if your loooking for work in civilian aviation nobody is going to balk at you logging pic for an airframe you are rated in, as long as you can fly the hell out of that thing and give good briefings on dealing with systems failures.
 

mudkow60

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Starting to get a bit more understandable. All my HAC (Aircraft commander time) can equal PIC.


This is where it is a bit fuzzy- I was told that once I am NATOPS (aircraft specific qualified), I can log all my First Pilot Time as PIC. One does not have to be aircraft commander qualified to log the FPT as PIC time, or so I was told. Is that true?

Maybe I am just dense.
 

nosehair

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mudkow60 said:
This is where it is a bit fuzzy- I was told that once I am NATOPS (aircraft specific qualified), I can log all my First Pilot Time as PIC. One does not have to be aircraft commander qualified to log the FPT as PIC time, or so I was told. Is that true?
This is true. It follows exactly the wording of the FAA (FAR) 61.51(e)(1)(i) Logging PIC: "Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated."
 

skiddriver

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mudkow60 said:
Starting to get a bit more understandable. All my HAC (Aircraft commander time) can equal PIC.


This is where it is a bit fuzzy- I was told that once I am NATOPS (aircraft specific qualified), I can log all my First Pilot Time as PIC. One does not have to be aircraft commander qualified to log the FPT as PIC time, or so I was told. Is that true?

Maybe I am just dense.
That depends. If you can sign for the aircraft as a PIC, then you can log FPT as PIC time for the FAA. If your NATOPS has a NATOPS qual required to act as co-pilot, that qualification does not allow you to log FPT as PIC time, because you aren't a signer.

The FAA doesn't care about mission ratings (HAC or AHC). If you are qualified to take an aircraft out as PIC and sign the bottom of the NAVFLR, then you are AC qualed. If you can't take an aircraft out as PIC (i.e. aren't a signer), then you are not AC qualed, and your FPT is not loggable as PIC.

So it's not fuzzy at all. If you could sign for the aircraft, you can log FPT as PIC even if you aren't the AC for the flight. If you couldn't sign for the aircraft, then you can't log it as PIC.
 

mudkow60

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Gottcha'-

When I fly as the HAC, I can log all that time as PIC. If I fly, not as a HAC (but still had my HAC letter for that helo), then I can use all my FPT as PIC.

Seems kind of a strange way of doing business.

Just checking to see if I am now correct.

Thanks for the clarification.
 
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Phrogboy

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Skid and Mud,
Not to rain on anyones parade, but one thing that comes to mind with what you bring up is where in the FAR's is most of that written? I believe everything that was just mentioned is true under PT 61 (Certification). This would be usefull when going for your next rating, such as your ATP. But as I understand it, when it comes down to resumes, most companies would probably expect you to go with the PT 1 Definition of PIC.

Pilot in Command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight;
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of flight.

I honestly can not say if this is gospel or not, as I do know that different companies look at resume times differently. But it would be wise to know under which chapter of the FAR's you are using to total your times.

3 months to go Mud? Any leads? Best of luck.
 

skiddriver

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Phrogboy said:
Skid and Mud,
Not to rain on anyones parade, but one thing that comes to mind with what you bring up is where in the FAR's is most of that written? I believe everything that was just mentioned is true under PT 61 (Certification). This would be usefull when going for your next rating, such as your ATP. But as I understand it, when it comes down to resumes, most companies would probably expect you to go with the PT 1 Definition of PIC.

Pilot in Command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight;
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of flight.

I honestly can not say if this is gospel or not, as I do know that different companies look at resume times differently. But it would be wise to know under which chapter of the FAR's you are using to total your times.

3 months to go Mud? Any leads? Best of luck.
I only have knowledge in this area because I had to convert 22 years of military flight time in 30-odd different aircraft into applications for FAA certificates. These rules are for FAA ratings and airlines don't give a hoot about them. They'll define what they need from you for application purposes, but unless told otherwise, using the 14 CFR 1.1 PIC definition is the only way to go. Military aviators need to understand the rules for properly converting their flight time to be able to accurately fill out an FAA certificate application, because no civilian company will hire you without you having the required FAA certs. There is plenty of info available if you know where to look.

The controlling regs are in 14 CFR 61.51.

A good reference is (once again) is Doc's FAR forum http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/index.html . Do a search on "military PIC flight time".

The FAA's 14 CFR 61 FAQ holds a lot of clarifying info. Here's a string of Q&A from the FAQ, which can be found at http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/afs800/afs840/part_61/media/pt61FAQ.doc

QUESTION: How does the FAA translate USAF primary time, secondary time, and total time to the FAA PIC, SIC, and total times? I'm in the process of translating my USAF times to FAA times for airline applications, but I can't find a clear answer on how to do this. I have read §§ 61.51, 61.73, and FAQ Part 61 web site. I received USAF undergraduate pilot training (UPT) in the T-37 and T-38 and afterwards attended C-141 initial training in 1987. I upgraded to First Pilot (left seat copilot) in 1988. In 1989 attended T‑38 school and received a Form 8 as a MP (Aircraft Commander). In 1993, I received my initial certification as a C‑141 Aircraft Commander. Since then I have flown two other transport aircraft going through their respective upgrade programs to aircraft commander or instructor. In 1996, I took the military comp exam and received my civil certification. I am still a military pilot.

ANSWER: Ref. § 1.1, § 61.51(e), and § 61.51(f): I know the military has some very slight differences in their rules for how they allow you military pilots to log flight time, PIC flight time, and SIC flight time. However, logging flight time in accordance with FAA requirements is addressed in § 61.51. The pertinent rules that address your questions are located in the following rules:

Per § 1.1, this rule defines “flight time” as “Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing.”

Per § 61.51(e), this rule defines the logging of “PIC flight time”.

Per § 61.51(f), this rule defines the logging of “SIC flight time.”

Otherwise, it is up to you to convert your logged military flight time to meet these rules.


QUESTION: The Air Force rules state that “primary time is time actively controlling the aircraft,” it seems to fit the description of § 61.51(e)(1)(i) [i.e., “the sole manipulator of the controls”]. What exactly does “. . . for which the pilot is rated. . . “ mean?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.51(e)(1)(i); You asked what does “. . . for which the pilot is rated . . .” mean in § 61.51(e)(1)(i). Well for your situation, you must have accomplished an official U.S. military pilot check and instrument proficiency check in that aircraft category, class, or type, if type is applicable, as pilot in command in order to log pilot in command flight time.

Additionally, I am not completely familiar with all the different military logging of time definitions. But the phrase “. . . for which the pilot is rated . . .” in § 61.51(e)(1)(i) would mean as for an example:

A person holds a Private Pilot Certificate with an AirplaneSingle-EngineLand class rating. While that person is receiving training for the Airplane Multiengine Land class rating, the person would log the flight time as “flight training time” received [meaning dual training per § 61.51(b)(2)(iv)] while that person is the sole manipulator of the controls (hands-on time). And the flight training would need to be endorsed by the instructor who provided the flight training. This would not be logged as PIC flight time because the pilot is not “rated” in a multiengine land airplane.

However, if that same pilot were receiving dual training in a single-engine land airplane, all flight time while that pilot was the sole manipulator of the controls (hands-on time) could be logged as PIC flight time since the pilot is already rated in a single-engine land airplane.

To log PIC in an aircraft that has a type rating designation, a pilot must have passed the appropriate type rating practical test and have that type rating awarded on his/her pilot certificate. Since the C-141 has a FAA aircraft type rating designation as the L-300 (Lockheed 300) you must have accomplished an official U.S. military pilot check and instrument proficiency check and designated as MP (aircraft commander) to thereby be “rated” before you may log PIC in the aircraft.


QUESTION: In § 61.73 it refers various times to “rated military pilot,” but does not define it. In the AF, we refer to a graduate of Undergraduate Pilot Training (UPT) as a “rated pilot.”

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.73(h)(3); Essentially, a “rated military pilot” is a graduate of our U.S. military Undergraduate Pilot Training course. This is the minimum requirement that combines with the completion of the military competency aeronautical knowledge test and the administrative application process that allows the FAA to issue military pilot a Commercial Pilot Certificate and instrument rating if appropriate.


QUESTION: I understand any time I was designated on the USAF flight orders as an Aircraft Commander, I can log PIC flight time, regardless of whether I was actually manipulating the controls. As per § 61.51(e)(2), which states “(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.” Does this apply to me since the USAF does not require an ATP certificate, so I don't believe this has any bearing in my case regardless of when I received my ATP certificate?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.51(e)(1)(iii) or (e)(2); You may log PIC flight time when you have accomplished an official U.S. military pilot check and instrument proficiency check in that aircraft category, class, or type, if type is applicable, as pilot in command. The way the FAA would interpret your position as an Aircraft Commander time is as follows:

The logging of PIC flight time when you are acting/serving as an Aircraft Commander resembles § 61.51(e)(1)(iii). As for your situation, when you are acting/serving as the PIC (i.e., Aircraft Commander) in the C‑141, you may log the time as PIC because the military requires that 2 pilots be aboard and you are the assigned PIC (i.e., Aircraft Commander) for the flight [ref. § 61.51(e)(1)(iii)]. And you are a rated military pilot and qualified in the C-141 to act/serve as the PIC (i.e., Aircraft Commander).
 
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skiddriver

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and some more....

QUESTION: I interpret § 61.51(e)(4) to mean I can log as PIC flight time for the time I was going through USAF training to achieve my military pilot (e.g., aircraft commander & copilot) qualification?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.51(e); No. When you were receiving flight training to qualify as a second in command or as an Aircraft Commander in a specific type of airplane you were not yet rated in that airplane. Therefore, you may not log that training time as SIC or PIC flight time. You had not yet accomplished an official U.S. military pilot check and instrument proficiency check in that aircraft category, class, or type, if type is applicable, as SIC or PIC. Just like civilian pilots, you'd be expected to log the flight time as flight training (dual) received. [Ref. § 61.51(b)(2)(iv)].

You may log SIC flight time after you have accomplished an official U.S. military pilot check and instrument proficiency check in that aircraft category, class, or type, if type is applicable, as second-in-command (co-pilot). You may only log SIC flight time when the circumstances complies with the logging of SIC flight time as per § 61.51(f).

You may log PIC flight time after you have accomplished an official U.S. military pilot check and instrument proficiency check in that aircraft category, class, or type, if type is applicable, as pilot-in-command (MP). You may only log PIC flight time when the circumstances comply with the logging of PIC flight time as per § 61.51(e).

§ 61.51(e)(4) is not appropriate to your question. It could only apply to solo (sole occupant) flight, if any, while in the UPT in the T-37 & T-38. Solo flight may be logged as PIC.


QUESTION: In the Part 61 FAQ website, several times it's emphasized that “acting” as PIC is different from “logging” PIC flight time. Therefore, may all my primary time as a copilot prior to my Aircraft Commander upgrade be logged as PIC flight time?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.51(e); No. You may only log PIC flight time when the circumstance complies with the logging of PIC flight time of § 61.51(e). The “primary time” (your words) may not be logged as PIC flight time since you had not accomplished an official U.S. military pilot check and instrument proficiency check in that aircraft category, class, or type, if type is applicable. Only when you have accomplished an official U.S. military pilot check and instrument proficiency check in that aircraft as a PIC may you begin logging PIC flight time. And even then, after you did accomplish an official U.S. military pilot check and instrument proficiency check in that aircraft as PIC, there were times after that where the training curriculum called for dual flight training periods where you were not the sole manipulator of the controls and would log “dual training”. I know when you were undergoing military flight training, there were training periods involving dual flights with your military IP. The IP was manipulating the controls while you watched. Right?

But most of all in answering all your questions, I'll say it again, you may log PIC flight time when you have accomplished an official U.S. military pilot check and instrument proficiency check in that aircraft category, class, or type, if type is applicable, as pilot in command.

{Q&A-462}
 
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mudkow60

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Phrog...


I am actually trying for the Coast Guard DCA slot, but I have to have back-ups in case it falls thru.

The reason I am asking the PIC question is that I called helo company, and the hour requirements were 1000 helo PIC time.

One last question for Skid or anyone-

It says above that you must be rated in the aircraft to log pic time... from what I understand, you are qualified in that aircraft when you complete your first successful NATOPS check. If that is true, can I log all my FPT time as PIC time on subsequent flights after NATOPS (with the knowledge that when I make HAC, all of my HAC time can be logged as PIC time).
 

skiddriver

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First, the helicopter company requirement for 1000 hours PIC most certainly refers to the FAA Part 1.1 definition, and means that you can only report to them time from your Aircraft Commander time column. None of this discussion about how to log FPT as PIC time would apply, unless you call them back and confirm that they will accept PIC time as defined in part 61.51. Aviation companies do not typically accept converted FPT for their PIC requirements, and if they determine that you have done so on a resume or application, will normally terminate your application process, or fire you on the spot if you made it through the hiring process.

To answer your question from the perspective of logging time for an FAA certificate application, not having access to your NATOPS, I can't answer definitely, but the answer is to be found (a) in the NATOPS manual itself, and (b) possibly on your NATOPS form from the check ride you cite.

If the NATOPS check described in your NATOPS will allow you to act as PIC (sign for the aircraft as PIC) then for FAA purposes, you can log your FPT as PIC and all the flight time for any flight where you were assigned as the AC.

It would help if you NATOPS sign off form also specified that you were authorized to act as PIC/AC, or if your qualifications sheet from your NATOPS jacket listed the NATOPS check as a PIC/AC check.

Here's an example. When I was assigned to the Rotary Wing Test Squadron at Pax River, we were short UH-1N signers for test flights. The UH-1N NATOPS manual describes a check ride required to act as Aircraft Commander. I took that NATOPS check and was authorized (and did) sign for the aircraft on flights as Aircraft Commander. I never did any of the tactical/mission syllabus flights to take a HAC check, and never took one. As far as the FAA is concerned, I was rated as a PIC in the UH-1N, and all FPT I logged in the UH-1N subsequent to that check ride (until it expired) could be logged as PIC. All the flight time for any flight where I signed as AC could be logged as PIC.

I just touched on one other military flight time consideration. If you ever had a non-associated tour, and your NATOPS check expired, when you returned to flying, you would have to pass a new NATOPS check before you were rated as PIC. Therefore the time you flew after returning to flight status, and before you had your NATOPS check, could not be logged as PIC, unless you were flying a small helo [<12,500 #] and had your civilian Helo rating, and were current to sign as PIC in small helos under FAA regs.

The lack of uniformity between military regs and FAA standards explains why it took me a long time to convert my military flight time to FAA standards.
 
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