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PIC/SIC...Again...

Dufus1

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I know it has been discussed a hundred times here, but I have to ask.
Are/Have regionals been getting around the 250 PIC rule for ATP? I was talking with a Peaknuckle guy (Gulfstream guy) a couple days ago and he swears:
1: He doesn't need 250 PIC, but can count time in the right seat in the CRJ "as SIC performing the duties of PIC while under the supervision of a PIC".
2: Other regionals have been doing that, Skywest was named by him.
My question is not can they do it. My question is have they been interpreting the regs that way not only at 9E but elsewhere?




I'm holding on tight...here we go...
 

Butters

Keepin' it real...
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Dufus1 said:
I'm holding on tight...here we go...

Should be no need for argument here. Believe it or not, it is perfectly legal. You may not agree with it, however that is the law. If you don't like it or agree with it, I suggest you write your congressmen.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:

(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.

(2) 100 hours of night flight time.

(3) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject to the following:

(i) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(3)(ii) of this section, an applicant may not receive credit for more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator or flight training device.

(ii) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(3) of this section if the training was accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

(iii) Training in a flight simulator or flight training device must be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device, representing an airplane.

(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least—

(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and

(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.

(5) Not more than 100 hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section may be obtained in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents an airplane, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained in an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
 

Dufus1

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I don't believe I stated whether or not I agreed with it. I was just always under the impression that 250 PIC was required. I did ask a simple question and got more than I bargained for. Thanks for ASSuming.
 

Rogue5

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Dufus1 said:
2: Other regionals have been doing that, Skywest was named by him.

Negative. SkyWest has no exemption from FAA ATP requirement regs. The only company requirements are above and beyond those required by the feds: 2500 TT and 1000 crew time.

Nice try though...
 

Butters

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Dufus1 said:
I don't believe I stated whether or not I agreed with it. I was just always under the impression that 250 PIC was required. I did ask a simple question and got more than I bargained for. Thanks for ASSuming.

Calm down, buddy. By "you" I meant "anyone reading this." There was a thread a month or two ago that was out of control over this.

Relax. I wasn't taking a shot at you.

250 PIC is required. However, you can credit SIC acting as PIC for that time.

By the way, you do not need an exemption to do this. It is in the regs. Some FSDO's don't allow it (long story) but you don't need special permission first.
 

Dufus1

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I would assume crediting SIC time as PIC time would be similar to the PIC time required in a twin (for Multi Comm. I believe, but too lazy to look) unless restricted by insurance...then same thing applies. Just new info to me and wanted other peeps info. Thanks for the response.

Rogue5. If one were to get hired at Skywest with less than 250 PIC and subsequently met the company requirements as you stated, would there be some 172 renting going on???
 

Rogue5

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Yes...
 

viper548

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Butters, I don't see how being an FO can be counted as performing the duties of PIC. I think Captain IOE would be 'performing the duties of PIC, while under the supervision of a PIC'

Under what circumstances would you say a FO could perform the duties of PIC?
 
S

SouthTex

Follow this rule, oh and by the way it's the law... In the crj or anything over 12.5 you have to be typed to log it as PIC.

DO I HAVE TO SAY IT AGAIN...YOU MUST BE TYPED, AND NOT ON THE KEYBOARD.
 

fly4ever

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To use the SIC/PIC time substitution for 121 upgrade requirements the carrier has to have approval from the FSDO where their certificate is held and it becomes part of their Op Specs. Each company's op specs vary per their operational requirements and may have some variations in some FARs. Some carriers have sought and received that approval, some carriers don't seek it because of the increased costs on their insurance.

I thought 9E had gone away from using that because of the multiple FAA/NTSB investigations of events at the carrier and the fact that the company insuring the crj's said "enough is enough" as far as accepting very low time employees into the right seat. Maybe not.
 
Last edited:

Butters

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SouthTex said:
Follow this rule, oh and by the way it's the law... In the crj or anything over 12.5 you have to be typed to log it as PIC.

DO I HAVE TO SAY IT AGAIN...YOU MUST BE TYPED, AND NOT ON THE KEYBOARD.

This is not logging PIC time. This is crediting SIC time for PIC time for the purpose of obtaining an ATP.

No one says you can log this in the PIC column. This allows you, when allowed by the FSDO, to credit SIC time for the minimum PIC requirement.
 

jergar999

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We should petition the FAA to change the reg so Gulfstreamers are stuck in the right seat for life.
 

Dufus1

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But what about this:

61.51 Pilot logbooks.

(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:

(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.

Is this not "logging time"???
I guess you could take "in a manner acceptable to the Administrator" as far as you want.

I am not trying to push anybody's buttons. Just trying to understand. If I am wrong then I have learned something new. If I am right, my friend at 9E has some work to do.
 

Monster Buck

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If you are acting as sic, then there is usually a PIC, unless they jumped out. That being said, if the FAA's intentions is to have a person have 250 hours of whatever kind of time, which in this case they say 250 PIC to be an ATP,..... but sic counts toward the pic time?...What else could it be? Why call it a PIC requirement? If it can be PIC or SIC performing PIC duties(which is a load of crap) then its 250 of any time. Which is no differant than any other time in the total time 1500 hour requirement.
 

BarbrPole2theOM

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I never have had to fill it out, but we have a company form to verify that the SIC was performing the duties of a PIC. You sometimes run in to it with military crews, or just really low timers that have worked their way up through the company.
 

Tank Commander

Jim "Tank Daddy" Bizzell
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PIC Time:

Watch the CA. When his head goes back and his eyes close, note the time. When his eyes open, note the time.

This is PIC Time! Log it, and in the remarks write CA. Incapacitated. Yes, people may lose their jobs, but you are getting your PIC time and climbing the senority list at the same time.
 
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