PIC/Performing duties of PIC..multi training...

[gkrangers]

So I'm working on my CMEL, and was a little confused about the times required.

If you are performing the duties of PIC, can that time count towards training recieved time as well? (Part 61 time reqs for multi comm initial)

 

[gkrangers]

Just to go into this further...exactly how much multi time is required for a Multi Comm Initial?

30? 20 training on 61.127(b)(2) + 10 PIC

or

20? 10 training on 61.127(b)(2) + 10 PIC

Which is it?

 

[nosehair]

20 hours. 10 training and 10 solo. The solo may be with an instructor and can be credited towards the total 100 hours PIC required, but is not PIC.

 

[minitour]

I've always read it as 30, just wondering why 20?

I've been wrong before, so it wouldn't surprise me...

-mini

 

[desertdog71]

(b) For an airplane multiengine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (i) of this section, a person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category and multiengine class rating must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot that consists of at least:
(1) 100 hours in powered aircraft, of which 50 hours must be in airplanes.
(2) 100 hours of pilot-in-command flight time, which includes at least—
(i) 50 hours in airplanes; and
(ii) 50 hours in cross-country flight of which at least 10 hours must be in airplanes.
(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in §61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—
(i) 10 hours of instrument training of which at least 5 hours must be in a multiengine airplane;
(ii) 10 hours of training in a multiengine airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and controllable pitch propellers, or is turbine-powered, or for an applicant seeking a multiengine seaplane rating, 10 hours of training in a multiengine seaplane that has flaps and a controllable pitch propeller;
(iii) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in day VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;
(iv) One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours in a multiengine airplane in night VFR conditions, consisting of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(v) 3 hours in a multiengine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.

 

[nosehair]

My mistake, Mini, you're right; it's 30.
20 Dual and 10 solo(may be with instructor).

 

[gkrangers]

But the 10 "solo" with an instructor cannot be counted toward the "training".

 

[rickair7777]

But the 10 "solo" with an instructor cannot be counted toward the "training".

Correct...it's not really "dual-received". The only reason the FAA allows an instructor to go along for the ride on your "solo" time is because it would be impossible to get insured to do it alone...

 

[nosehair]

Correct...it's not really "dual-received". The only reason the FAA allows an instructor to go along for the ride on your "solo" time is because it would be impossible to get insured to do it alone...

It doesn't count towards the "20 hours training on 61.127(b)(2), however, to clarify, it is stll logged as "dual received", it is not solo.

 

[gkrangers]

Understood, makes sense. Now that I'm doing the training it is helpful doing the full 30 hours, since only around 20 are training, with 10 being XC.

 

[Ralgha]

Correct...it's not really "dual-received". The only reason the FAA allows an instructor to go along for the ride on your "solo" time is because it would be impossible to get insured to do it alone...

That policy of the FAA is the biggest pile of steaming bullshoot that I have ever laid eyes on. They should either require the time to be SOLO (read ALONE) or dual. There is a world of difference between "performing the duties of PIC" (spoken by my very talented ass while blasting the insurance companies with a nose burning shart) while an instructor is sitting next to you, and flying an airplane ALONE where it all comes down to you to determine whether you live or die.

That 10 hours as it currently stands is a complete waste of the students time and money.

 

[gkrangers]

Its just 10 extra hours of instruction, 10 hours that honestly, I think I need to be able to handle the airplane better and pass the checkride.

 

[Ralgha]

Its just 10 extra hours of instruction, 10 hours that honestly, I think I need to be able to handle the airplane better and pass the checkride.

No, it's not 10 extra hours of instruction, whether you log it as such or not. If it is, then you're destroying the intent of the policy, misguided as it is. The intent is that the CFI sit there like a bump on a log and let you "perform the duties of PIC". It's supposed to be a "solo that isn't solo", with the CFI there solely to bail your sorry ass out if you try to kill yourself, which the insurance companies (may they all rot in hell) seem convinced that you're going to do at the first opportunity. If the CFI provides input, then it is not "solo" any more, and if the CFI does what he/she is supposed to, then you're not getting any instruction.

You're not getting any instruction, so what are you getting? Certainly not solo flight time, nor any of the benefits reaped by solo flight time (and many benefits are reaped indeed from solo [ALONE] time). All you are getting is a bit of time to practice in the airplane, while still paying the CFI fee (you ARE paying him/her right?) for much less benefit than you would get from being by youself and not paying the fee.

 

[midlifeflyer]

That policy of the FAA is the biggest pile of steaming bullshoot that I have ever laid eyes on. They should either require the time to be SOLO (read ALONE) or dual. There is a world of difference between "performing the duties of PIC" (spoken by my very talented ass while blasting the insurance companies with a nose burning shart) while an instructor is sitting next to you, and flying an airplane ALONE where it all comes down to you to determine whether you live or die.

That 10 hours as it currently stands is a complete waste of the students time and money.

Don't blame the FAA for this one. I'm pretty sure the FAA would prefer the time really be solo, but no insurance company will cover it, so no one who rents twins will take the risk.

So how much student time and money would be wasted if the reg continued to require solo, but the student couldn't get an airplane to solo in until he had at least 50 hours (or whatever number the policy might require) and couldn't get the certificate until then.

 

[Ralgha]

Don't blame the FAA for this one. I'm pretty sure the FAA would prefer the time really be solo, but no insurance company will cover it, so no one who rents twins will take the risk.

So how much student time and money would be wasted if the reg continued to require solo, but the student couldn't get an airplane to solo in until he had at least 50 hours (or whatever number the policy might require) and couldn't get the certificate until then.

Mostly I blame the insurance companies. The FAA is sort of backed into a corner by them, but I think the "solo that's not solo" is not the solution. They should change it so you can either do 10 hours of alone time (for those who can manage to stick it to the insurance companies), or 10 hours of dual. "Solo that's not solo" is dumb.

 

[nosehair]

I'm with Ralga on this one. This rule (solo with an instructor) was first introduced in 1997 (I think) and since that time, there have been a boatload of the new Initial MultiEngine Commercials and Initial MultiEngine CFI checkrides.

If you are going to go straight into multi engine flying, this would be no problem, but the reality is that most airline wannabes are gonna do single engine flight instructing, and the new CFI who got a bunch of his training in multi's with all that emphisis on multi engine flying with the oh-by-the-way single engine add-on does not do a very good job of teaching single engine.