PIC or SIC

[ZachPilot]

Hey Guys and Gals,
I am currently working for a company that required me to be typed in the a/c they fly and every other leg we swap seats. Pay wise I am still considered a First Officer but when they put out the monthly flight time records they show my time in the left seat as PIC. My question is even though I am still an F/O according to the company, can I log the time in the left seat as PIC? The a/c we fly is the 30 series Lear.
Any thoughts?

Thanks.

 

[semperfido]

Pic

 

[Rythm3]

You can log it PIC because you are typed in the aircraft and fly it from the left seat. Since you are the sole manipulator of the controls during that leg, part 61 of the FAR's says that you can log that time as PIC.

Under Part 1 of the FAR's, the pilot designated as PIC by the company, who also signs for the aircraft, and has the primary responsibility for the aircraft is considered the PIC.

As far as your logbook is concerned, you can log that time PIC since you meet the criteria of the first scenario above. On the other hand, if you apply to a company that requires X number of hours PIC Jet, as defined by Part 1 of the Regs, you may not meet that requirement.

I am in the same boat as yourself with a Part 91 Westwind. One aircraft, two pilots, both of us are typed. We swap seats every leg, and if one of us gets sick or takes vacation, the other takes the trip with a contract copilot. But as far as the company is concerned, I am the copilot, and the other guy is the Chief Pilot/Captain.

Hope this info is helpful.
Rythm3

 

[sleepy]

We also swap legs. We are all typed in the aircraft. Sometimes we are designated the SIC when flying with another type rated Captain. The basic rule that I use for logging PIC is that I only do it when I am the designated PIC for the trip (designated on the schedule, signed for the aircraft, name on the flight plan as PIC).

 

[HMR]

I logged it the same way as Sleepy when I flew PT135. Awhile back I was being considered for a PIC position but didn't meet the "PIC Jet" req'ts. When the CP and DO found out how I logged my time they had me go back and add half of my SIC time to my PIC time on the application. In other words, they wanted me to count all the time I spent in the left seat as PIC. It put me well over their mins. and I was offered the job.

I think it's always better to be conservative in your logbook. I'm glad those guys were adding PIC time to my application rather than subtracting something "fishy".

 

[trybysky]

Pic

ok, I fly a cheiftain and my F.0. (PFT) today told me he logs the time that he flies the airplane as PIC. Our aircraft are all single pilot and we operate that way 90% of the time.

Can you have 2 PIC's in one airplane? I log it all as PIC, because If anything happened it would be my ass. I am PIC even when he is flying, right?
I know he can log it per 61...but...for his ATP/Insurance/interviews/whatever, does it count?

Also, if you are a CFI giving instruction in a plane in which the student is rated...does the student get to log pic? Are you both pic?

not to take over the thred, it just brought up some questions!

 

[TIS]

These remarks have been correctly rebutted below and corrected further below.

Pic

Not so fast there. The first, and most important question is whether this is Part 91 or Part 135 flying.

If it's part 135 the PIC is the person designated by the Certificate Holder as the PIC. No one else can act or log PIC if these are the rules of operation being used.

ok, I fly a cheiftain and my F.0. (PFT) today told me he logs the time that he flies the airplane as PIC. Our aircraft are all single pilot and we operate that way 90% of the time. ... etc, etc.

there is a difference between loggin and acting as PIC and this is what you are asking about. The short answer is that no, you cannot have two people ACTING as PIC but it is possible to have two people LOGGING it.

I suspect you're flying for some 135 operator and if you are your "SIC" has to have a reason to be there that complies with Part 135 (or that exempts him from compliance with 135) that's probably delineated in your ops manual. If he's desingated as an SIC he CANNOT log PIC because he's not designated as such.

What he does is his business but it might become yours if the FAA ever gets into a records perusla of either of you. I'd get this straightened out - just for your own peace of mind.

TIS

 

[some_dude]

If the pilot is qualified in the aircraft (certificated and rated), and they are the sole manipulator of the controls, they can log PIC. Some companies may not accept PIC time logged that way, but that is their decision and not the FAA's.

135 or 91, doesn't matter. If it is a 135 leg, the pilot must be trained and qualified in order to legally manipulate the controls. If they are properly trained and qualified (PIC or SIC), they can log the time as PIC. This is pretty clear in 61.51.

If it is an aircraft requiring a type rating, of course, then the type rating is required to log PIC.

For added bonus points: it is my understanding that the type rating does not need to be current (per 61.58) to log PIC time as sole manipulator of the controls, even though you obviously could not act as PIC. Anyone know if this is in fact true?

Not so fast there. The first, and most important question is whether this is Part 91 or Part 135 flying.

If it's part 135 the PIC is the person designated by the Certificate Holder as the PIC. No one else can act or log PIC if these are the rules of operation being used.


there is a difference between loggin and acting as PIC and this is what you are asking about. The short answer is that no, you cannot have two people ACTING as PIC but it is possible to have two people LOGGING it.

I suspect you're flying for some 135 operator and if you are your "SIC" has to have a reason to be there that complies with Part 135 (or that exempts him from compliance with 135) that's probably delineated in your ops manual. If he's desingated as an SIC he CANNOT log PIC because he's not designated as such.

What he does is his business but it might become yours if the FAA ever gets into a records perusla of either of you. I'd get this straightened out - just for your own peace of mind.

TIS

 

[TIS]

Okay, you are half correct

I did a little poking around and actually found an FAA opinion letter that supports your contention that an SIC can indeed LOG (but not ACT) as PIC under 135. I've included the text of the letter for anyone interested at the end of this post.

However, contained in the body of this letter is evidence that your type must be current in order to LOG PIC time.

Also found in this letter is support for what I said about the designation being important. If you're the PIC on the paperwork, you're the ACTING PIC and that's that. if you're the SIC then you're the ACTING SIC. What you log does indeed seem to be your business.

You learn a new nuance every day! I rescind most of my previous commentary.

TIS

Text of FAA legal opinion:

March 26, 1992


Mr. Michael G. Tarsa


Dear Mr. Tarsa:

Thank you for your letter of April 3, 1991, in which you ask questions about logging pilot in command (PIC) and second in command (SIC) time when operating under Part 135 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR). We apologize that staff shortages, regulatory matters, and interpretation requests received prior to yours prevented us from answering your questions sooner.

Your letter presents the following scenario: a Part 135 certificate holder conducts operations in multiengine airplanes under instrument flight rules (IFR). The operator has approval to conduct operations without an SIC using an approved autopilot under the provisions of FAR 135.105. The operator has assigned a fully qualified pilot, who has had a Part 135 competency check, to act as SIC in an aircraft that does not require two pilots under its type certification. Although FAR 135.101 requires an SIC for Part 135 operations in IFR conditions, the autopilot approval is an exception to that requirement.

You correctly state that while the SIC is flying the airplane, he can log PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i) because he is appropriately rated and current, and is the sole manipulator of the controls. Additionally, he has passed the competency checks required for Part 135 operations, at least as SIC.

You then ask two questions. The first asks whether the pilot designated as PIC by the employer, as required by FAR 135.109, can log PIC time while the SIC is actually flying the airplane. The answer is yes.

FAR 1.1 defines pilot in command:

(1) Pilot in command means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time.


FAR 91.3 describes the pilot in command:

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

There is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC time. Part 61 deals with logging flight time, and it is important to note that section 61.51, Pilot logbooks, only regulates the recording of:

(a) The aeronautical training and experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate or rating, or the recent flight experience requirements of this part.

FAR 61.51(c) addresses logging of pilot time:

(2) Pilot in command flight time. (i) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot in command time only that flight time during which that pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or, except for a recreational pilot, when acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

(ii) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot in command time all of the flight time during which he acts as pilot in command.

(iii) (omitted).

(3) Second in command flight time. A pilot may log as second in command time all flight time during which he acts as second in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

As you can see, there are two ways to log pilot in command flight time that are pertinent to your question. The first is as the pilot responsible for the safety and operation of an aircraft during flight time. If a pilot is designated as PIC for a flight by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 135.109, that person is pilot in command for the entire flight, no matter who is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the aircraft.

The second way to log PIC flight time that is pertinent to your question is to be the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, as you mention in your letter. Thus, a multiengine airplane flown under Part 135 by two pilots can have both pilots logging time as pilot in command when the appropriately rated second in command is manipulating the controls.

We stress, however, that here we are discussing logging of flight time for purposes of FAR 61.51, where you are keeping a record to show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the requirements for a higher rating. Your question does not say if the second pilot in your example is fully qualified as a PIC, or only as an SIC. This is important, because even though an SIC can log PIC time, that pilot has not qualified to serve as a PIC under Part 135.

An example of this difference is FAR 135.225(d), which raises IFR landing minimums for pilots in command of turbine powered airplanes flown under Part 135 who have not served at least 100 hours as PIC in that type of airplane. Served and logged are not the same in this context, and no matter how the SIC logs his time, he has not served as a PIC until he has completed the training and check rides necessary for certification as a Part 135 PIC.

Approval for single pilot operations with use of an operative approved autopilot system under FAR 135.105 gives an operator an additional option in the conduct of operations. It does not mandate that all future flights be conducted in that manner. The operator can elect to fly trips with two pilots, as is otherwise required for flight in IFR conditions under FAR 135.101, using the second in command instead of the autopilot.

Your second question asks if, under the circumstances given above, the SIC can log time as SIC when the designated pilot in command is flying the aircraft. The answer is yes, as long as the certificate holder is using the SIC as a crewmember instead of exercising the autopilot authorization. In other words, the certificate holder elects not to conduct an IFR flight using the single pilot with a functioning autopilot option, but rather conducts an IFR flight using two qualified pilots. The two pilots are then "required by the regulations under which the flight is conducted", FAR 61.51(c)(3), and the assumption is that the second pilot (SIC) will function as a required crewmember, and SIC time may validly be logged. However, if for some reason another qualified pilot "rides along" and does not function as a crewmember, then second in command time may not be validly logged.

This interpretation has been prepared by Arthur E. Jacobson, Staff Attorney, Operations Law Branch, Regulations and Enforcement Division; Richard C. Beitel, Manager. It has been coordinated with the Manager, Air Transportation Division, and the Manager, General Aviation and Commercial Division, Flight Standards Service.

We hope this satisfactorily answers your questions.

Sincerely,


Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division

 

[ZachPilot]

In my case, we are operating as a Part 91 corprorate flight department.

Zachpilot

 

[rchcfi]

TIS,

After reading that letter you so graciously posted, I have a question. I just had my SOE removed from my Type, and I just started swapping seats with my boss. My question is: With 20 hours of PIC under my belt, can we use the lower minimums because my boss is technically the real PIC? Or because I'm sitting in the left seat and don't meet the 100 hours in type, do we have to use the higher minimums?

Cheers,
RCHCFI

 

[TIS]

TIS,

After reading that letter you so graciously posted, I have a question. I just had my SOE removed from my Type, and I just started swapping seats with my boss. My question is: With 20 hours of PIC under my belt, can we use the lower minimums because my boss is technically the real PIC? Or because I'm sitting in the left seat and don't meet the 100 hours in type, do we have to use the higher minimums?

Cheers,
RCHCFI

I assume this is 135. Who is the designated PIC?

The designated PIC must have served (not simply logged) 100 hours as PIC in order to lift the high minimums (baby captain) restriction. You haven't done that yet. Has he?

Seat swapping should have nothing to do with it.

TIS

 

[rchcfi]

I assume this is 135. Who is the designated PIC?

The designated PIC must have served (not simply logged) 100 hours as PIC in order to lift the high minimums (baby captain) restriction. You haven't done that yet. Has he?

Seat swapping should have nothing to do with it.

TIS

Yes, he has....I was just wondering if it applied to the pilot sitting in the left seat flying the aircraft.

 

[trybysky]

thanks for posting that letter, that helps a lot!

TBS

 

[some_dude]

I'm working from memory, so may be wrong, but I believe this is addressed in your ops specs rather than the reg itself. If I remember correctly, the pilot manipulating the controls needs to meet that requirement, as does the PIC (of course, the PIC and the pilot flying can be the same person). I am not sure about this, though.

I know for a fact that for low visibility takeoff, either the PIC must be manipulating the controls (and have 100 hours *acting* as PIC) or, if the SIC is to manipulate the controls during the takeoff, the SIC must have 100 hours as a pilot in the make and model of aircraft.

Yes, he has....I was just wondering if it applied to the pilot sitting in the left seat flying the aircraft.

 

[TIS]

Well, I'm looking at my ops specs...

...and AND 135.225 and I can't find anything about being the manipulator of the controls - at least not for landing. The applicable section of the specs is C054 and it only addresses the issue of raising one's minima to comply with 135.225(e) or, if RVR is used, in compliance with the table provided.

I agree that the person manipulating the controls for lower than standard takeoff must have the 100 hours served in capacity as a crewmember in type, AND that what this really means is that the FO cannot perform a lower than standard takeoff if both he and the CA do not have 100 hours served.

TIS