PFT rears it's head again

ironwedge

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I was just reading this thread at APC and it seems PFT is alive and well. The allure of an airline career is easy to romanticize, although to the tune of $70K-$80K I don't think these guys know what they are in for.

I'm sure these young aviators could use a reality check:

http://forums.airlinepilotcentral.com/showthread.php?t=377
 

BoilerUP

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Bustin must work for CAPT.

That place sucks, if *only* for the fact its overpriced. And are they really training people for Focus Air? According to the Cargo forum their airplane doesn't move too much...
 

starchkr

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WTF!!!!! 70-80K to get a regional job?! Who's smokin' crack now! Oh yeah, but theres good news...you get a CRJ or MD-90 type when you are done. Whopdee doo... what friggin' good are they going to do you with 250-500 hours? Must be nice to spend all of mommy and daddy's money.
 

Godvek

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starchkr said:
WTF!!!!! 70-80K to get a regional job?! Who's smokin' crack now! Oh yeah, but theres good news...you get a CRJ or MD-90 type when you are done. Whopdee doo... what friggin' good are they going to do you with 250-500 hours? Must be nice to spend all of mommy and daddy's money.

Hey, it's a DC-9 type. Get your facts straight, lol.
 

The_Russian

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ironwedge,

CAPT is not PFT. Yes the program is degenerate and lame. Yes it is rediculously expensive. Yes I don't agree with 400 hour pilots in a 747. We all think it is stupid but in no way does it classify as PFT.
 

michael707767

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The_Russian said:
ironwedge,

CAPT is not PFT. Yes the program is degenerate and lame. Yes it is rediculously expensive. Yes I don't agree with 400 hour pilots in a 747. We all think it is stupid but in no way does it classify as PFT.


I agree. How is CAPT different from the guy who goes to the local FBO to get his private, instrmt, comm, me, etc? The issue of an airline hiring a 400 hour pilot is another thing altogether, but I don't see where this is PFT.
 

ironwedge

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Good points, I stand corrected. Lame - Yes.....PFT - NO
 

BigHangar

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ironwedge said:
I was just reading this thread at APC and it seems PFT is alive and well. The allure of an airline career is easy to romanticize, although to the tune of $70K-$80K I don't think these guys know what they are in for.

I'm sure these young aviators could use a reality check:

http://forums.airlinepilotcentral.com/showthread.php?t=377

Truthfully PFT has continued to be around for a long time...I mean, look at Southwest...
 

psycho

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Once upon a time I was a non PFT rebel myself. American Eagle told me in the early 90's that for the mere sum of 12,500 Shekels they would be willing to take me from 25-zero to hero. Should have seen the brochure, it was beautiful!! Oh the life I would live, they even made it look like dry cleaning, a fitness trainer and tooth whitening was included in the deal.
Being the Lad I was, I said no thanks. I thought PYD ( Pay Your Dues) was the way to go. Learned how stupid I was the first time I flew with an accelerated zero to hero acadademy grad. You should witness the ability to quote regs and manuals firsthand. Amazing!! You should see the crease in those clothes and the shine in those shoes. How do they get that gel to do that for their hair??
So here is my realization, I will be the first pilot to offer PFS ( Pay for Seat, Pay for Seniority ) The auction will be held on E-Bay. Bids start at $140,000 USD. ALPA has been compliant thus far with PFT, so I expect no opposition.
 

UALjan15

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bustin
Do you think flight time is more important than a quality foundation? Why would a 500 hour CFI in a Cessna be more qualified to fly right seat in a CRJ than a 250 hour pilot with a DC-9 type rating and 14 months of CRM and human factors training?



The quality foundation that you refer to is called experience, I still don't think there is a way to shortcut that. You can take just about anyone and train them rote recite "light, switch, checklist". However, a 250 hour wonder with CAPT experience has no business in the cockpit of a 121 carrier's aircraft in [insert a phase of flight that requires aeronautical experience in excess of what a 250 hour pilot can bring to the table].


There is NO shortcut to gaining experience, you want to fly like a 5000 hour pilot...go fly 5000 hours.

The core argument here seems to be whether quality training can substitute for experience. Everyone compares the big $$ flight academy guys to the "pay your dues" camp, but no one seems to look at the military. No one seems to bat an eye at a 200 hour UPT grad going right into the right seat of a C-5 or B-1, or into the only seat of an F-16 or A-10. I can tell you from experience that any of these are more challenging than flying the right seat of the CRJ. The reason why the Air Force can trust a low-time pilot with these jobs is that they built them a very solid foundation in UPT, and built upon it with aircraft-specific training.
 

~~~^~~~

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How exactly does someone "earn" a type rating with 100 hours of sim time? I thought an ATP was required for a Type Rating.

None the less, the zero to hero wonders do usually fly an approach with great precision and know the regs better than anyone at the airline. However, they also are very weak when it comes to flying outside the sim. They can't prioritize tasks ( making calls to company to report times and fuel is more important than catching what altitude ATC clears us to ). A scheduled airline operation is no place for folks to get their first 500 hours of "real flying experience."

The military is a different situation. Military training is not 5 weeks long under a regional airline budget, then to sit for 45 days before flying a month of continuous duty overnights ( 3 hours of flying 3 hours of sleep and another 3 hours of flying starting at 5 in the morning into the World's busiest airport )

If it were my choice these program graduates would not be going straight to the right seat of anything. PIC time is needed to hone their skills and to weed out those who should not be flying. But, no one much cares what line pilots think about this issue. Management wants technically qualified pilots buts in seats for as little as they can spend. As long as the airplane doesn't crash it seems airlines are pleased - and the Captains who fly with these zero to heros have a pretty strong incentive to avoid crashing until they can find other jobs.
 

ironwedge

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UALjan15 said:
The core argument here seems to be whether quality training can substitute for experience. Everyone compares the big $$ flight academy guys to the "pay your dues" camp, but no one seems to look at the military. No one seems to bat an eye at a 200 hour UPT grad going right into the right seat of a C-5 or B-1, or into the only seat of an F-16 or A-10. I can tell you from experience that any of these are more challenging than flying the right seat of the CRJ. The reason why the Air Force can trust a low-time pilot with these jobs is that they built them a very solid foundation in UPT, and built upon it with aircraft-specific training.

I think the reason nobody compares military aviation training to a program like CAPT is that they don't compare. The motives are vastly different: profit vs. mission. The DoD has the resources and assets to select and train a qualified candidate. These pilot farms fudge qualifications (or potential) based on ability to pay for the training.
 

Thedude

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~~~^~~~ said:
How exactly does someone "earn" a type rating with 100 hours of sim time? I thought an ATP was required for a Type Rating.

Nope, you can get a type on a comm or pvt certificate.
 

ivauir

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UALjan15 said:
No one seems to bat an eye at a 200 hour UPT grad going right into the right seat of a C-5 or B-1, or into the only seat of an F-16 or A-10. I can tell you from experience that any of these are more challenging than flying the right seat of the CRJ. The reason why the Air Force can trust a low-time pilot with these jobs is that they built them a very solid foundation in UPT, and built upon it with aircraft-specific training.

Another difference is leadership and supervision. You say it is more challenging to fly any of these military mission than it is to fly a CRJ, but the comparison is somewhat unfair. When we were 200 UPT grads we had our hands held. We were exposed to a squadron full of knowledge and experience every day and every flight was planned to the most minute detail and then thourghly analysed afterwards. A RJ pilot will fly with differnt folks all of the time and there is no consistant leadership focused on developing our young aviator. Weaknesses will fester and grow unchecked until we have a real problem. While a 121 carrer is an ideal place for an aviator to grow, that pilot needs a certain amount of maturiity, experience and air sense to be able to take advantage.
Just my opinion, but there is nothing in the civilian world that duplicated the military's approach, and because it is tied not just to the training but to the culture and mission of the military I don't think there can be.
 
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