PFT Is this?

[ShawnC]

Recently I saw this ad in the school paper.

http://epicaviation.com/first-officer-training-course.htm

I was wondering is this PFT? Its exactly what I want to do, but it seems like PFT, and I don't really have 21K lying around.

 

[Flip]

That is definately P-F-T. Also known as P-F-A-J...pay for a job. (these would be considered nice terms).

Not much more I can add.

 

[Timebuilder]

I can't tell you how much that ad distresses me.

Someone right here on this board recommended Epic to me as an employer, so I had conversations with the owner's wife, who is a really nice lady, and some other folks there at Epic. Around five weeks ago they had approximately 14 instructors, and not all were busy. They didn't anticipate a need for additional instructors. The owner's wife recommended that I call VP&J, which is right on the field with Epic, and fax my info since I am just under the IFR 135 mins.

Here's the kicker: the chief pilot told me that I would have to have an ATP as a MINIMUM for working with his little airline.

I guess the other minimum is twenty grand. So sad....

Remember kids, this is not really a job, and the $1,000 FO pay doesn't change that. When you have your King Air time, you are OUT. That is, unless you are silly enough to have done this with ATP qualifications.

Friends don't let friends PFT.

 

[jaybird]

The sad thing is I think a lot of recent (or soon to be) riddle grads might eat this up.

 

[flydog]

Not only is it PFT but you cant log SIC time in a KA100. Its a single pilot airplane under Part 91 and under 135 an SIC would only be required if they werent exempted under 135.105 which is rare for a King Air operator

I would hate to have to explain 100 hrs of SIC King Air time at an airline interview

 

[publisher]

Maybe

Not that I think this is a great program, however, I believe that you can log the time if the airline ops manual deals with it. As example, Airnet has a program to build time to get to the 135 minimums. Their ops manual deals with second officer flying and it is loggable, i believe. Check it out.

The PFT part is questionble too. If a 2nd officer is not required, you are not taking a paying job away from someone as they are not required, which is one basis for PFT haters

 

[Timebuilder]

>The PFT part is questionble too. If a 2nd officer is not required, you are not taking a paying job away from someone as they are not required, which is one basis for PFT haters.<

Almost right. You don't need a two crew aircraft to arouse PFT ire. In any situation where an operator wants two pilots in his airplane, be it a King Air or a Cherokee 140, he should be paying BOTH pilots for their professional services, not just paying the PIC of the single pilot aircraft and taking money from the second pilot for the privilege of the ride-along. Single pilot ops are still PFT if a pilot was not hired and paid to satisfy the operator's desire for two people in the cockpit.

 

[flydog]

Someone who knows for sure correct me if I am wrong

Just because an airline or company SOP/GOM calls for a 2 person crew does not make it loggable per the FARs.

I think what the FAA means about "required crewmember" is required due to the type operation (121/135) or type aircraft (727/737.etc)

I could start a 135 operation with a Cessna 172 and require a copilot. That doesnt mean that copilot can log that time as SIC

 

[bigD]

Regarding Airnet - it seems to me that it doesn't really matter what the FAA thinks of the time - but rather what a future employer would think. Having said that though, it sounds like most people in general consider Airnet to not only be a legit place to build time, but a good company too.

 

[bigD]

...or rather, it DOES matter what the FAA thinks, but in the end it doesn't mean squat if a future employer calls BS.

 

[jaybird]

...or rather, it DOES matter what the FAA thinks, but in the end it doesn't mean squat if a future employer calls BS.

You only need to log that time for the purposes of the FAA. When you fill out an app. you don't need to include that time that you logged as an SIC. You can also keep it in a seperate colum in your logook.

jmac, umm thats about 100 ME. Did you enjoy your day off?

 

[starchkr]

flydog...

you are correct about the SOP/GOM and logging SIC hours in a single pilot airplane... However...


I believe what makes it all legal is the fact that SIC'c (at least at Airnet) are "assigned crewmembers" specific to certain flights therefore making them "required crewmembers". I believe, I could be wrong about this next part, that it also has to do with operating 135 with pax and the use of auto pilots. I know there is a reg that requires 2 pilots flying pax in IFR conditions if an auto pilot is not installed or working. Now as we all know Airnet is a freight company, but we do have the capability of carrying jumpseaters, who are then pax, on our aircraft which brings that whole reg into play. Now how often do we put a jumpseater on a plane with a PIC and an assigned SIC, well not too often, but i have done it. We just put the third seat on the rails in the back of the old baron, place all cargo in a separate area from the pax, and then you have a plane that meets the far's.

All in all, it has to do with the fact that our ops manual gives us the right to have an SIC on board a single pilot aircraft and the fact that the SIC's choose a run to stay on and then are assigned as a "required crewmember", all the while letting him log SIC for the time he operates the radios and does the co-pilot duties. Now don't forget that we switch legs, so the time the SIC is flying he logs as PIC and the capt does the radios and the co-pilot duties.

Overall though, i believe you could operate your 172 with 2 required pilots if you wanted to. Just remember, as someone above pointed out, we have a very good "friendship"...if you want to use that horrible term... with the FAA, and our company is continuously talking with them to approve things and make sure everything is legal that we do, and if you were patient enough with the FAA you could make it work with your 172. By the way, how much would you pay? Make me a GOOD offer and let's go from there.


If all the above is completely off base and makes no sense, just understand i have been dealing with my 16 month old all day and i can barely see the screen i am so beat!!!!!

 

[starchkr]

oops, sorry to take this thread more off track from it's original meaning... i just reread what it started out as. Now i know i am beat!!

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T, again . . . .

Yeppers. P-F-T. You know what they say about something that looks, walks and quacks like a duck.

It's blatant. I copied this right off the page:

Course Cost: $21,000

Minus: -$ 1,000 First Officer Pay
=======

YOUR TOTAL: $20,000


I would assume that this place would deduct Social Security and federal withholding taxes from the $1K. So, "your total" really would be more than the $20K.

I remember my Riddle students always being on top of hiring philosophy and airlines, so I find it hard to imagine that a Riddler would go for this. On the other hand, my last real contact with ERAU students was ten years ago, before these outfits really flowered.

I appreciate Publisher's reasoning. But, I feel that it boils down to the strict definition of P-F-T. If you must pay for the training to have the job and sit in that KingAir's right seat, it is P-F-T.

I find the notion of being able to get a job only if I can pay for the training to be extremely distasteful. Anyone can buy a job, I guess, if you have enough money. I felt that my quals more than sufficed to be worthy of a commuter job. I met or exceeded every paper requirement the commuters had ten years ago. The implication was made to me clearly ten years ago that you had to be rich, and not necessarily qualified, to get a job. P-F-T was one reason I opted out of putting forth all of my efforts toward getting a commuter job.

As always, only my .02. Throw it in the Destitute Qualified Pilots Employment Fund. We all have free will and have choices.

 

[ShawnC]

Philair... you would never get me in a Phil Air plane. I don't know for sure about there record, but they have that glow around them that makes me just want to leave the office.

What can you do when I come about of school with around 500+ hrs(I am going to make sure I have 100hrs ME). I know there is flight instructing but I heard AG is a possibility what else is there that I can do(not looking for specfics but for general directions)?

 

[bigD]

You only need to log that time for the purposes of the FAA. When you fill out an app. you don't need to include that time that you logged as an SIC. You can also keep it in a seperate colum in your logook.

jbird - I guess I don't undersand. Wouldn't one WANT to include the time in an application?

 

[jaybird]

Sure you can include the time, but if you think the company might not like it or may question it then you don't need to include it. It's up to you.