PFT Info request (not a flame starter)

[FlyDeltasJets]

Out of curiosity, and for information purposes only, I would be interested in learning when each airline's PFT program began and ended. I know the majority of them, but only ballpark numbers. If anyone has more exact info, I would appreciate it.

P.S.
Lets try not to start a war about this, I'm not asking how you feel about it, just when it took place for each airline.

 

[TriDriver]

FlyDeltasJets

Here's a synopsis on the history of Kiwi Airlines. If I remember correctly, you had to pony up something like $50,000 to get hired. I don't know if you'd call it PFT or PFJ (Pay for Job). You may have been required to already be qualed on the 727 to get hired - I can't recall. You were actually buying into the company, I believe, and were an equity shareholder. Of course shares were eventually worth squat!

TriDriver Bob
********************************

Kiwi International Airlines was founded in 1992 by ex-Eastern staff and operated Boeing 727s from Newark Int'l, New Jersey. In 1994 a reorganisation took place, and by mid-1996 operations were temporarily restricted by the FAA. It struggled in the budget travel market, but had to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in 1996 and ceased ops in 1997. It was reorganised in 1999 but had to find shelter again in 1999 in Chapter 11. In 1999 its fleet consisted of 7 Boeing 727-225(A)s.
Sources:
http://aerotransport.free.fr/

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Thanks Tri,

Dad was an EAL guy, so I knew quite a few of the kiwi guys.

Anyone with info on CMR, ASA, ACA, CEX, AE, etc?

 

[AAflyer]

FDJ,

My understanding was American Eagle was never PFT.

Before they merged

Wings West- NO

Flagship-NO

Simmons-NO

Executive- NO

AAflyer

P.S> The guys from Kiwi started a charter 727 company called Sky Trek Int'l originally based in RIC then New Jersey, I think they started some type of pay for job but the brief time I was there no. Sky Trek then became Discovery Airlines which finally shut down in 2000

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Thank you AA.

I never applied to any PFT companies, and I did apply to the Eagle carriers, so I think you are correct.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[bobbysamd]

No P-F-T "war", just information

I recall that Air Midwest had some kind of P-F-T program in the very early nineties, before Mesa bought it.

Comair (NOT the flight school) started up a P-F-T program around 1991. I recall that it ended five or six years later.

None of AE carriers AA Flyer mentioned were P-F-T. I recall them well. Throw in Nashville Eagle for good measure. I had colleagues and/or friends who got on with Wings West and Simmons.

I believe that Carnival Airlines was a P-F-T outfit.

Family Airlines, you had to buy a piece of it. Just like Kiwi.

How about throwing in Pay For Interview? Mesa may well get the crown for that, in the early 90s with it's pay-for-interview ATP program. That program apparently still exists; I saw it this past week on the MAPD website. The PACE program is surely pay-for-interview.

It just seems that nearly every regional ten years ago was P-F-T. That's somewhat exagerated, I realize, but, I believe, not far from the truth.

For good measure, throw in FSI's link with ASA. For some reason (and not because I worked at FSI or had a student take the ASA program), that one offended me less than the others.

 

[328dude]

I wonder how many aspiring hopefulls are still at some of these flight schools banking on the fact that after they shell out loads of cash for flight training, they will atleast get an interview. Ex. FSI, Comair Academy etc etc. Im not saying they are not good schools at all, what I'm saying is, if these schools suddedly decided that there are no more interviews, how many would have thought twice about enrolling.

NOT FLAME BAIT PEOPLE

 

[AAflyer]

Carnival

Carnival was one of those kinda PFT schools. You could go there and get a B737 type or 727 type and 727 FE ticket. The only way you would get interviewed is if you trained there. Many however trained there got the ticket (you are also current with the IOE you do) andwent to other airlines.

AAflyer

 

[bobbysamd]

Interviews

I wonder how many aspiring hopefulls are still at some of these flight schools banking on the fact that after they shell out loads of cash for flight training, they will atleast get an interview. Ex. FSI, Comair Academy etc etc. Im not saying they are not good schools at all, what I'm saying is, if these schools suddedly decided that there are no more interviews, how many would have thought twice about enrolling.

NOT FLAME BAIT PEOPLE

Agreed, absolutely, about the flaming.

At FSI, the only interview you might be assured of getting is for a CFI position with the place. I understand that the waiting list is still six months.

If Comair is "guaranteeing" interviews, it is guaranteeing false hopes. People here on the board have talked about how comparatively few students actually get on as instructors, and how many of them actually get interviews. AT least they'll get jobs; I understand that Comair is hiring.

I think a better example is MAPD. The whole deal about Mesa is getting "the interview" with Mesa. But, what good does getting and passing "the interview" do if there's no hiring? You're placed in a hiring pool. What does that mean (I know what is means - this is a rhetorical question)? Can you remain in the pool indefinitely? I don't know that answer, but I doubt it. Then, it may well be that MAPD poolies are offered Freedom Air, and all that it implies. At least a couple of people have written that Mesa has recalled most of its furloughees, so prospects for MAPD grads may brighten.

 

[FlyingSig]

CoEx went to no PFT if you had certain hours in the fall of '97 , droped the hours a few months later and PFT was gone all together by mid '98. Honestly not sure when it started though...

 

[cornbread]

Is gulfstream still PFT?

 

[bobbysamd]

Another rhetorical question.

 

[328dude]

Bobby:

Ok, i agree 100% with your earlier post. However, what is a low time instructor to do if offered Freedom? The majority of pilots out there now would certainly stay well clear of Satan's Den. What about the young aspiring types that have not had the opportunity or experience to make such a choice. Most pilots goal when the want to fly 121 is just that. They want to fly and don't care who for. I do give credit to those that do a little research before making a career decision. However, there are many among us that do not have this disipline.

I certainly wouldn't go to Freedom as I'm sure most of us wouldn't either. But if your son or daughter was offered the position and it's the only job that seems avaliable in this industry today, what would be your advice to them?

Just a discussion piece. Not trying to pee on Mesa's fire. Only Freedoms fire place.

 

[PA-44Typed]

ASA

As far as I now ASA new hirers are required to sign a 3-year training bond. You only have to pay it back if you leave within 3 years. I think it’s prorated for 36 months so you only pay what is left if you leave early.

 

[350DRIVER]

MAPD-
It is my understanding that the MAPD program grads as well as there instructors are/and will continue to be given the choice whether they "want" to go to Freedom or wait on Mesa. I think a better question would be "what if" Freedom is in desperate need of pilots and Mesa is not.?? - I think if I was in the MAPD program right now I may be a tad concerned with this issue down the line since at 300TT and 121 "ready" they may have no other option than to go to Freedom if that is what Mesa needs... I would only hope however that these recent as well as "future" grads are able and will always be able to choose whether or not they "want" to go to Freedom after dropping that much money into the program. It is anyone's guess but IF they tell a grad that they are going to Freedom then I am sure that after spending all that money, having very little TT, being groomed for the 121 envir. then I can't see too many refusing to accept a Freedom position since there hands are kinda tied up. Should be very interesting to see how the MAPD program and Freedom are going to work out together if that is Mesa's goal which still seems unclear as of right now.

3 5 0

 

[Speedtree]

328dude,

in answer to your question. "ignorance is no excuse." Someone who doesn't want to put in the time to research what they are getting into deserves what they get. I understand the feeling of wanting a job other than flight instructing but we all contribute to the industry in our own small way and selling ourselves short is not the solution. Taking a job at Freedom Air or any such outfit only contributes to and encourages airline managements' abuse of the system. If I had a son or daughter who was a flight instructor or aspiring pilot I would tell them to shoot for the best and put in the time and work to get there not settle for the bottom of the barrel.

Just a few thoughts.

 

[FL000]

ASA dropped PFT and training contracts in the first quarter of 2000.

For a few months prior to that, they waived PFT for ATPs, but then decided to drop it completely.

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD to Freedom

Originally posted by 328dude However, what is a low time instructor to do if offered Freedom? The majority of pilots out there now would certainly stay well clear of Satan's Den . . . . Most pilots goal when the want to fly 121 is just that. They want to fly and don't care who for. I do give credit to those that do a little research before making a career decision. However, there are many among us that do not have this disipline . . . .

Speedtree has a point. Aviation is a career that is different than most. You really have to do the research and develop the discipline and willingness to do the research. There are so many issues that are not apparent that really have little to do with flying airplanes - the reason why most people want to be professional pilots. I've told people who are interested in the career to begin by talking to pilots. Even private pilots, because pilots know other pilots and, eventually, they'll land in a professional pilot's face.The board is a great resource. I wish I had such a resource when I changed careers - not that I would have made a different decision - because my decision would have been far more informed.

I appreciate 350Driver's comments. I did not know that MAPD grads had a choice between Freedom and regular Mesa. But, here again, it boils down to being a freshly-trained MAPD grad eager to fly and have "the interview" process fulfilled versus being a poolie and waiting forever. It seems to me, though, that you still would go wherever Mesa tells you to go.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

THanks for the info, guys...keep it coming. I would especially like to know when the program began and ended and each carrier. Come on, CMR and ASA guys, you've never been shy with me before!

 

[Dieterly]

Here are the few more, sorry no dates.

Commute Air (SP), Valuejet, Paradise Airlines (later bought by G-stream)

On a sidenote, you are not the guy that tried to bang the station manager (BGR) at a x-mas party, are you?