Pft Help!

[Snakum]

<<She was wondering if there are any other industries besides aviation in which new-hires have to pay for their training. I haven't heard of any. Has anyone here heard of any? >>

Something similar ...

... a few years ago in the IT industry a company in the midwest would train you for your MSCD certification (Microsoft developer cert) and then you'd work for them free for six months. Also, when ISO 9000 certification for manufacturers was a hot item you could get the required ISO auditor experience by paying for the course thru BSI and then auditing for free for a few certifications to meet the requirements for Lead Assessor cert.

I didn't do these programs either.

Minh
Corporate Skyhawk Captain Extraordinaire

 

[46bubba]

Enigma,

You said the following:

At one time, Comair, ValueJet, COEX, ASA, and numerous other airlines required a pilot to buy his job. They would pass over pilots with years of time spent as a professional pilot in order to take one with no qualification other than the ability to get his daddy to write a check.

That is the first hard item posted here that makes the anti-PFT point and I conced that that is indeed a screwjob.

Regarding your earlier post about docs and lawyers, they do have to purchase a license in each state they want to practice in and for lawyers it sucks even more in that they have to re-sit for the bar in each state, so they are not receiving a blanket qual. My wife is an occupational therapist and her licenses are state by state. That is a strictly money generating operation. What's my point? Not exactly sure, but I don't agree with your corrollation.

 

[publisher]

Bobbysamd

Bobby,

You are right technically, however, I would contend that for what they pay you and the hours that you are supposed to work. some of the doctors and lawyers are paying for training. You are right, not cash, just blood sweat.

Enigma,

I find your posts pretty level and articulate. I plead guilty to sometimes just taking a point to see what comes back. This and scope issues are pretty lively on here.

One of the most abused and screwed up areas are flight attendants. They have to go through these 3 to 5 week schools and are often paid nothing to be there. While some airlines have special programs for people with experience (short cources), the fact is that it is ludicrous how they put these experienced people through this.

You are also on target that the airline specific training does not transfer. When I said that this is not pay for job, what I mean is that no one is led to believe this is a job for anything but a short period. It is a chance to build some hours in airline operation. The only thing that comes out is the turbine time and training.

There was never any question that this program was put together by Cooper to generate income. Does that mean that the training is bogus. I don't think that many of us do this for the altruistic contribution to the greater good. Well maybe Bobby.

My remark about payroll was not meant as anything but saying that I understood where Cooper was at earlier as he approached someone I worked for about help and we looked at it.

 

[46bubba]

Enigma,

I have gooned my response. You wrote:

If that is so, then why doesn't regional management hire you guys (assuming PFT is effect), without asking for money. PFT is only a way for airlines to defer costs save money. If it had anything to do with qualifications it wouldn't exist. Your defense of PFT just doesn't follow logic and your "bargain for regionals" shows that.

My point was that, those guys who did the PFT at ASA had a lot to offer and it was a defense of their decision. Their quals were sufficient and they have all succeeded (left seats). What would be their motivation to try and support their families instructing at an FBO or flying freight? They had all instructed before and more of the same would have amounted to little more than racking up hours for hours sake. It's value would have been marginal in either case. Additionally, it was not to suggest that during times of PFT that an ex mil type could use his background as a way around PFT. Policy is policy.

 

[bobbysamd]

Attorney licensure

Just to clarify that point, while the basic principals of law don't change from state to state, there are some laws and procedures that vary. Therefore, it really isn't out of line for an attorney to have to sit for the bar in different states and even then, attorneys don't always have to take the exam. Depending on the attorney's experience, the attorney may have to sit only for part of the bar exam or may not have to take it altogether.

You can't really compare sitting for a different bar exam to P-F-T. If you pass the bar in the state in question you can practice law anywhere in that state and not a specific lawfirm.

 

[8sm]

I'm amused at the posturing.

First, I was hoping to hear from those that adamently find disgust in the PFT/PFI practice, what they are doing from behind the computer screen to stop this practice, if anything.

Secondly, is it alright to instruct at these PFT/PFI schools. I would
think your also keeping the business going and feeding the beast.

I find the conversation interesting from those who are from PFT/PFI schools. I want to know why they chose that route? How successful the program? and did you find the training hard? How many of you advance to airlines? Did you get any grief in the interview because you PFT/PFI? Would you do it again? as well as many more question. I'm interested in learning from their experience good or bad. By negatively confronting these people we close the door on information. Knowing what your competiion has to offer in the interview, lets you know what your up against.

Perhaps the weight of qualification to airline pilot training will be for those willing and able too pay for initial training. I hope not, but with the rising cost to train and the turnover rate, those willing to jump from one airline to another, has force the business unable to no longer budget such expensive initial training. Those that have gone before you may have shot us in the foot.
I do not know of many businesses that can afford to pay for thousands of dollars of training and be willing to loose that money and employee if they should decide to walk. We all know that it happens all to often. We are our worst enemy, we perhaps forced our future employers to PFT/PFI. Funds are tight for payroll, training ect when consumers are only willing to pay $39 for a seat.

Thanks inadvance..........Best regards 8sm

 

[46Driver]

I've been on a trip and just got back so I did want to clarify a few items. One of the reasons that most naval helicopter pilots think that they can jump quickly into flying airlines (albeitly for a regional - not enough hours or experience for a major) is that for the last 35 years, the majority of the primary fixed wing (T-34C) flight instructors were helicopter bubbas. A helo driver would go through a short (50 - 70 hour) course and then its off as an instructor pilot teaching students approach turn stalls, spins, and acrobatics, as well as instruments - we don't think it is too far of a stretch for us to fly as a copilot in the airline environment (i.e. no acrobatics) Also, while you are correct in stating that most fleet helo time is uncontrolled VFR, the training command is different due to the fact that fully 50% of the syllabus is instruments and we spend most of our time trodding the airways and irritating jets while we are on the ILS
And to those who think PFT is a heated debate, Engima brought up the issue of scope which is far hotter. I will ask this question since I have limited experience on the civilian side. Is the RJ the cause or the effect? I would think it is a combination of the discount carriers (SOuthwest, Airtran, JetBlue) not only siphoning off passengers but changing the entire price structure. Likewise, the internet has made it easier for business and coach passengers to shop for prices. Finally, Executive Jet as well as the Acela train in the Northeast are taking a bigger share of the premium paying business passengers. That is just an observation - if you have any other insights or conclusions I would like to hear them.
Finally, you will be happy to know that I turned down my first job offer because it was PFT (7 were selected for the class and then I was singled out and told to PFT because I was a helo bubba). I declined the offer and went to another regional which offerred me a job , no strings attached.
Good Luck to all.

 

[bobbysamd]

Hiring rotorheads

Well, there you go. I've been saying all along that there are plenty of regionals that will hire military helo pilots if they can show even a little fixed-wing time. You just have to find the right regional. Your T-34C time most certainly counts as turbine PIC. If you could get a hundred or so in a C-12, you'd really be set without having to P-F-T. Once you can get in to a 121 regional and go up the chain, you'll be prime majors meat. The majors still let military pilots go to the front of line; it's a matter of checking off that box.

We had a helo driver a few weeks ago who had something like 100-200 of Seneca time lament that he'd have to go P-F-T. I don't believe it. In this day and age, someone with his background will get regional interviews. The military flying background and not the multi would be his calling card in his case.