PFT banner tow ripoff

[timeoff]

I know this is an old post but I just had to post this.

Tim Pancini and Aerial Messages has been taken to court, sued and then had a judgement placed against him 30+ TIMES!!!!

Like the previous poster said, go to http://www.clerk.org/cm/case_inq/search_results.jsp?fullName=aerial&inqType=1 (Volusia county clerk of court), go to business name and type in "aerial". You will see the names of everyone that has sued him (FBO's, newspapers, and a LOT of pilots). What a toad.

 

[svcta]

I towed for a couple of years for an operator not near a beach. And I was very familiar with the regs of the biz. and our dealings with the feds, etc. There is NO ENDORSEMENT. Our FSDO required no documented training, nobody came out to watch us do anything. I'm unaware of any requirement to prove yourself to a FED regarding size of banners you can tow.

You do have to get your name put on your company's waiver....but that's FREE. Any training is only required by the insurance company and even then it's pretty vague. Ours only stipulated that there be some kind of training. After the guy I worked for watched be pick an empty rope a couple of times from the back seat we were done...........and he paid for the gas.

Bottom line: Find an operator that you WANT to work for. It took me a little longer to progress with my "career" but I never took a job working for someone that I thought might not want me to be safe. Except for that german adult film director.

 

[avbug]

I started and ran a banner towing operation some years ago. I did the initial tows for the FAA, in each aircraft we used, to obtain the initial letter and banner certification that went on our operating waiver.

Contrary to popular opinion, the FAA does provide an operating certificate of waiver to each operator, and does require training, and names of pilots involved. The FAA may or may not require logbook endorsements as part of the conditions of that certificate. However, if the instruction for the banner training is provided by a certificated flight instructor, the instructor IS required to provide a log book endorsement for the instruction given, regardless of w(h)eather that instruction is required by any regulation.

See 14 CFR 61.189(a):

§ 61.189 Flight instructor records.

(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.

The FAA produces an Advisory Circular entitled Information for Banner Tow Operations, which isn't numbered with the other circulars.

FAA Form 7711-2 is used to apply for the certificate of waiver to conduct
a banner towing operation.

14 CFR 91.311 provides the requirement that operations be conducted in accordance with the certificate of waiver:

§ 91.311 Towing: Other than under § 91.309.

No pilot of a civil aircraft may tow anything with that aircraft (other than under § 91.309) except in accordance with the terms of a certificate of waiver issued by the Administrator.

(91.309 covers towing of gliders and ultralights)

The requirement for a logbook endorsement, training records, type of training, pilot qualifications, etc, are spelled out in the certificate of waiver issued by the FAA. Several posters have stated that they didn't see this whe they towed...did you ask to see it?

The certificate holder must maintain on the certificate the names of all pilots, their certificate numbers, ratings, and home addresses, and the makes and models of all aircraft that will be used in the banner tow operation. The certificate, in it's current form, must be aboard each aircraft that's used in the operation and named in the certificate.

No doubt that the person involved is shady and has a long history of being the target of litigation, with documented mechanical failures and what can clearly be seen as dangerous and carless operation. I haven't flown for him or met him, nor have I seen his authorization to conduct banner operations, but I would be hesitant to say he doesn't require the endorsements legallly, until I've seen those documents. Merely because you haven't found a regulation that formally states an endorsement is required to tow banners, doesn't mean that it isn't, for a particular operator. Additionally, even thought the certificate may not spell out the need for an endorsement, the approved training program the operator uses may have that as a requirement, and as the training is required as part of the certificate of waiver, any requirements that apply to that training program are also required for compliance with the cerificate of waiver, and are subsequently required in accordance with 91.311. Understanding the regulation often means visiting more than one place.

Additionally, the FAA has provided direction regarding issuing of the certificate of waiver, as well as surveiling the operator, in FAA Order 8700.1, the General Aviation Inspector's Handbook, Volume 2, chapter 45.

In order for a pilot to tow a banner, it must be done under a Certificate of Waiver or Authorization. It's issued in accordance with this Handbook. Under "Certificate Issuance" and the subheading "competency," we can find the following:

(2) Competency.

(a) Pilot Competency. The inspector must be satisfied that all pilots listed on the application are competent to perform their duties by confirming each pilot has:
• A reliable record of past experience
• Demonstration of sample pickup to a FSDO operations inspector
• A reliable record of successful completion of a banner towing training program

Bear in mind that this is the current policy, and was revised a year and a half ago.

Also provided is:

H. Change of Pilots and Aircraft. The certificate holder must maintain a list of all pilots and aircraft to be used in the operation. For ease of update, pilots and aircraft should be listed on a separate page and attached to the certificate. Whenever there is a change of pilots or aircraft, the FSDO must be notified at least 5 days in advance of the first date the aircraft or pilot is scheduled to operate. The FSDO must approve the change before the operation involving the new pilot or aircraft takes place. In the case of newly acquired aircraft, especially a restricted category aircraft, an airworthiness inspector may choose to inspect the aircraft.

We also read:

Operator Responsibility. Operators who hold a certificate have the responsibility to train each new pilot in banner tow operations and in the special provisions of the waiver.

The FAA Order even provides a sample pilot training form that includes full stalls, flight at critically slow airspeeds, banner pickup and drop (and takeoff with banner attached, where appropriate), failure of banner release system, loss of rudder control, partial power loss, and engine failure with banner attached.

Requirement by the operator that the pilot receive a logbook endorsement before the banner operator will put the pilot on his certificate may be the operator covering himself by having documentation to show compliance with training regulations. If the operator requires it, then the operator requires it...it's the operator's discretion to hire you, or put you on the certificate, and the operator doesn't need to do either...but may elect as a condition of hiring you to require the log endorsement before permitting you to be listed on the certificate.

In order to tow for the operator, you must be on the operator's certificate. If you want to get on the operators certificate, then you must complete the operators training program, whateve that may be, as well as meet any of the special requirements attached to the certificate of waiver. The operator may require an endorsement, or may have other methods of showing compliance with training requirements.

If a job is catering to low time pilots who may or may not be able to handle the job, then requiring that the low time pilot pays for his own training initially may not be out of line. Twenty five hundred bucks for getting some instruction in a banner pickup is out of line. We never charged a pilot to train them to pick up banners, but we also never let a pilot tow a banner for us who wasn't competent or in whom we didn't have confidence. Banner towing isn't rocket science. It does come with certain legal requirements, and may include associated with those legal requirements certain company requirements. Personally, I believe a pilot should be screened for a job, and the employer should exercise some professional discretion in selecting candidates for training in whom the employer has a modicum of confidence. An applicant shouldn't be required to post a training bond for a job like this, but if he or she is required, then protection needs to be in place to ensure that when the terms are met, the money comes back to the applicant.

Pilots do tend to be a shifty lot...I've seen a great many who take expensive training and give nothing back, and that damages the system for everyone. Training bonds, contracts, and other agreements are common place. However, training in a small single engine piston airplane to tow a banner isn't really in the same category as obtaining a type rating in a multi million dollar turbojet...nor can a new pilot handle (or be expected to handle) arduous training expenses...epecally when the job pays peanuts. An operator who rapes the pilots wallet is unethical, and doesn't set forth any semblence of professionalism, or establish any expectation thereof from the applicant. In other words, employee beware, the boss ain't very above-board. He's a shyster.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

I've flown for a few operations.
your best bet is Aerial Sign which was based out of HWO a few
years ago. They build their own planes and they are pure bred
banner planes. They have bases in HWO BLM and a few others.

They've changed hands a few years ago so some of this has
changed.

CE

 

[momalley81]

They're still based out of HWO, and still build the planes from scratch. Engines are replaced with Millenium rebuilds or factory new.


Summers they have weekend only operations in S. Jersey, NYC, SoCal and Long Island among other markets. Along with steady work on the NASCAR circuit, and NFL contracts as well. Pay is well above average ($20-$50/hr) and they take care of you pretty well on the road (a banner gig w/ company credit card that pays per-diem?!)

Operate as VanWagner Aerial media now. Highly modified J3, J5, PA12 and PA18's.

 

[Way2Broke]

AV BUG.... I read all your posts and wonder, "how did he get so smart?" Is there anything that you don't know? Thanks for contributing so much to FI.

 

[avbug]

Pro Flight Library CD by ASA (Summit Publications). Eighty bucks, has all the FAA publications on one disc, makes life simple, good search engine...and no paperwork to carry.