Pentagon to triple the number of drones

[Hobit]

That ignore feature is like toilet paper!! Just one clean swipe and all the $hit is gone!! Very cool!!

I tried to tell you this two pages ago...nice isn't it.

 

[JungleJett]

I tried to tell you this two pages ago...nice isn't it.

It is....

If you take away the garbage he post, there is only like 17 post on the entire site!

 

[JungleJett]

Just a little reminder...I am sure but close friend Rez will find fault in it...but he would.


http://www.nragive.com/ringoffreedom/nr_j0199_landing.html

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The NRA? What does this video have to do with the NRA? Marketing and packaging patriotism of only a certain flavor? Specific to certain group? How many American flags do I need on my car before you approve?

Nothing more simplistic than a demanding Col Jessup "I just assume you say thank you and be on your way".

So much for the ignore list?

 

[splatt]

Some of those innocent civilians were definitely bad guys. The whole point of this war is we are fighting them over there rather than over here. People don't seem to get that. War has changed. The bad guys use civilians as sheilds, don't wear uniforms, emerge from ordinary homes to kill us and melt back into the hoi polloi. This causes the news to say civilians were killed when in actuality it was the bad guys wearing civilian clothes.

 

[acpilot]

That ignore feature is like toilet paper!! Just one clean swipe and all the $hit is gone!! Very cool!!

I've been saying that for months! Isn't it great?

 

[CFIIer]

It is the Soldier, not the minister
Who has given us freedom of religion.
It is the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the Soldier, not the poet
Who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the Soldier, not the campus organizer
Who has given us freedom to protest.

It is the Soldier, not the lawyer
Who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the Soldier, not the politician
Who has given us the right to vote.

It is the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag.

Charles Michael Province, U.S. Army

I'm not Army (Air Force actually), but the point is made...

 

[Hawker800]

Can a civilian get a job flying these things?

 

[JungleJett]

Can a civilian get a job flying these things?

Yes. There are a few companies that operate UAV's. Purely ISR..I do not think any shooters.

 

[C40_Pilot]

Great Discussion

Thomas Jefferson said:

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty"

Like it or not, our country needs the "Rez's" of the world.

I'll chime in with my .02 on some of Rez's thoughts:

1. On 9/11 our civilians were killed, now years later Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraqi civilians are being killed, is that okay? I think we would all agree that, no it isn't okay. Not one of us wants to kill a father or a mother or a son or a daughter. Do we do everything in our power to ensure the use of lethal force is justified, yes I think we do. I would like to believe that when a UAV operator releases a weapon, he is taking as much care to ensure the protection of the lives of the innocent on the ground as if he were over anywhere, USA releasing the weapon. Do civilians end up as casualties to bad bombs, bad intel, or just being in the wrong place at the wrong time, yes and we don't high five each other when it happens.

2. Rez has gone on about how we have killed innocent civilians and is it "justified"? He even used the example about terrorists killing his family and calling it justified. Maybe there is confusion between civilian deaths as a result of our prosecution of the war and GI's on the ground plinking civilians. I would bet that the ROE don't allow the plinking of civilians. But I think, under the guise of legal warfare, that civilian casualties aren't wanted, sought after, desired, but a result of what our leaders have authorized us as soldiers to do. Is it justified, yes it is. Is walking into your home and killing your family justified, no it isn't and that isn't what we are doing either.

3. When does it all end? Good question. I don't think we, as a nation encourage war. You may disagree based on our foreign policy, world attitude, yada yada. But it kinda sucked for the Kuwaitis when they were invaded by Iraq. We were there to liberate them. Kinda sucked for some airline passengers, building workers, and american citizens about 10 years ago. Now we are attempting to ensure when your wife and family go visit grandma, they have a safe, free country to do it in. Some in this country haven't, and the men and women on this board are doing it to protect your wife and kids, and I speak for all of us saying that we'd be willing to die for the freedom of your wife and kids to go see grandma, on a plane, and not worry about being blown up. When will it end, good one, go ask UBL.

4. Killing civilians creates more terrorists. Truthfully, maybe it does, but as mentioned above, we don't want to kill civilians as much as we don't want to have to be at war with Al Qaeda and Taliban. We can't control that. I think our attempt is to help those children come to the realization that being a terrorist won't bring them as much happiness in their life as being regular joe citizen.

5. Iraq war was a sham. No it wasn't. Your elected leaders acted on the information they had. Your elected leaders decided with a majority vote to invade Iraq and look for WMDs. We didn't find any and for some reason that absence has allowed people like you to opine that the war and invasion was a sham. For some strange reason, people like Rez seem to think us GIs are so blood thirsty we just couldn't wait to start the killing machine. The lady in my neighborhood, yeah that one, with the dog and 4 year old son, who lost their husband/dad during the war, they don't have "kill an Iraqi for mommy" tattoos. This war cost us, the American people, significantly. Is/was the war a sham, no it never was. Did we find WMDs? No, unfortunately, but you can't use your "I'm a lot smarter than the rest of you" attitude combined with the 9 years of post 9/11 info and stand on your alter of it was a sham.

6. Leaders in DC. Don't get me started either. But we live here, we vote for them, if you don't like it, move to Iraq, they're setting up a new government, go help them.

Peace.

 

[Birdstrike]

Geez, I see Rez has spewed his sack over here now. He or she's been owned too many times on the Non-Av board and now he appears to like hanging out with the title 10 guys. One thing you'll find is that you'll waste your time trying to correct Rez's pacifest views. Rez has been outed as an avowed Socialist who frequently cuts and pastes from numerous red web sites and only knows how to answer a question with a question. I believe Rez's identity is also female but that's unconfirmed. At any rate, he/she is a world class baiter and is incapable of learning anything after being schooled. When owned, he/she ducks out, waits, then reappears with new flame-baiting and reels somebody else in into a fruitless discussion. Many on the Non-Av site have resorted to the ignore toggle just to zero it out. You'll get nowhere if you engage. Supreme military-envy suspected at root here.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Geez, I see Rez has spewed his sack over here now. He or she's been owned too many times on the Non-Av board and now he appears to like hanging out with the title 10 guys. One thing you'll find is that you'll waste your time trying to correct Rez's pacifest views. Rez has been outed as an avowed Socialist who frequently cuts and pastes from numerous red web sites and only knows how to answer a question with a question. I believe Rez's identity is also female but that's unconfirmed. At any rate, he/she is a world class baiter and is incapable of learning anything after being schooled. When owned, he/she ducks out, waits, then reappears with new flame-baiting and reels somebody else in into a fruitless discussion. Many on the Non-Av site have resorted to the ignore toggle just to zero it out. You'll get nowhere if you engage. Supreme military-envy suspected at root here.

Bored? Why not go to church to find the strength to go bomb some civilians..... am I sure there is scripture you quote that justifies iron bombs raining down on evil doers..... including the five year olds....

 

[Mamma]

Bored? Why not go to church to find the strength to go bomb some civilians..... am I sure there is scripture you quote that justifies iron bombs raining down on evil doers..... including the five year olds....

You are a real piece of work there chief. A class act all the way.

 

[acpilot]

"Bored? Why not go to church to find the strength to go bomb some civilians..... am I sure there is scripture you quote that justifies iron bombs raining down on evil doers..... including the five year olds...."

People stop paying attention to you and you pull a stunt like this! You really have no shame. I feel sorry for you Rez. You are truly a defective human being...

...and this is coming from a non-church goer.

 

[Mamma]

So we don't question.... questionable acts by our own govt? How do we self correct? How do we ensure that what we are doing is proper and moral?.... if we never question......

Your problem is you don't listen to the answers and you do not understand the situation. Sure you present correct facts but they do not convey the entire picture of the reality. The articles you posted did not show the whole picture. Here is an example to convey my point: A paper prints that several men ran into a building and shot 6 people dead including a child. But then you do your homework and find out that the shooters were policeman and they were raiding a house full violent bank robbers who had numerous hostages. The child had a gun and was firing it.

You bring up great topics that need to be discussed but then you disrespect those you are trying to have the discussion with. Just read this thread and see the hostility you instigated. You need to know your audience. You cannot come over to the military forum and call us murderers and expect an honest and clear debate on the issues. There were several ways to intelligently bring up your issues and have a mature discussion but you chose to fan the fire on a delicate situation and piss off JungleJett. JJ has a lot of insight into what is going on and I think if you respectfully engage him I think you might both share a lot in common instead of the thread degeneration we have all read here.

 

[mesaserf]

Some food for thought.

C40 You say the invasion of Iraq was justified by our elected leaders because they "believed" Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.

Then why have we not invaded North Korea?

They have shown that they now possess weapons grade materials and have detonated an atomic bomb.

They have stock piles of nerve gas and other agents that are the definition of WMD's. Defectors from the North Korean military have given testimony that they tested these chemical weapons on political prisoners.

While we spend blood and treasure in Iraq and Afghanistan millions of people in North Korea suffer under the iron fist of one of the worst governments in the world. So again... Why have we not invaded?

Could it be that North Korea does not have oil?

I'll tell you this much, if the current pressure being put on the Iranian government fails to bring about regime change I guarantee we will use the military option. Royal Dutch Shell and BP have lusted after those oil reserves ever since the Shaw was ousted in the late 70's. But first we will have to get Iraq and Afghanistan out of the news. The sham coalition government in Iraq will be declared a victory and the Afghan people will again be abandoned to their fate after the new gas pipe line is completed from the Caspian.

It may even take another terrorist event (God I hope not!) to jump start this thing. And when that happens will you just carry on business as usual in your basement office in the Pentagon?

Well... I guess no one will have to worry about accountability for war crimes since they set legal president with the Bush memos on torture. All you have to do now is say that you acted under orders.

Nuremberg was for nothing after all...

And the corporate media talking heads kept on... and on....and on......

 

[Mamma]

If that was food for thought, I am still hungry. Your rant on conspiracies, evil corporations were amusing as is your ignorance on the N Korea situation.

 

[JungleJett]

Every time someone brings up the "oil" argument, I just have to laugh.....and feel sorry for their ignorance.

set legal president

....go back and correct your post.

 

[ableone]

He is actually quite correct.

A foreign policy that dictates we invade every nation that threatens to develop WMDs is both ill advised and completely unworkable.

Even had Iraq possessed WMDs the invasion was a poor strategic decision for the United Stantes.

 

[mesaserf]

If that was food for thought, I am still hungry. Your rant on conspiracies, evil corporations were amusing as is your ignorance on the N Korea situation.

Ignorance? OK then give me some help. Why have we not invaded North Korea?

Are we afraid of them? Would we be up against the Chinese?

Oil has nothing to do with it? Why not?

Please do not just ignore the questions. Give me your opinion and I may just stand corrected.

 

[mesaserf]

Every time someone brings up the "oil" argument, I just have to laugh.....and feel sorry for their ignorance.


....go back and correct your post.

Ugh. OK "Precedent" Happy now?

Please correct my ignorance. Unless you think your attack on the messenger and not the message is good enough for you. Please step up to the plate!

 

[JungleJett]

Ugh. OK "Precedent" Happy now?

Please correct my ignorance. Unless you think your attack on the messenger and not the message is good enough for you. Please step up to the plate!

Go back and correct it.

Show me irrefutable proof where oil was the reason for the Iraq invasion. Cite reputable sources, links, documents, personal knowledge, ect.

Balls in your court. If you cannot provide proof for your allegations, I would recommend remaining quiet.

 

[C40_Pilot]

And where is all that oil?

So if oil was the reason, where is it all? Why aren't prices cheaper? Are we hoarding Iraqi oil, putting it in ships and storing it someplace?

Where did all of that precious oil go?

 

[Mamma]

Ignorance? OK then give me some help. Why have we not invaded North Korea?

Are we afraid of them? Would we be up against the Chinese?

Oil has nothing to do with it? Why not?

Please do not just ignore the questions. Give me your opinion and I may just stand corrected.

Mesa,
I would rather not do all your homework but I will give some help.

1) Study the Korean War and pay particular attention to Chinese involvement. Try and focus on why they became involved and what they were willing to sacrifice.

2) Study the history of Korea...emphasize on the geographical significance of it over the ages. I'll throw in "buffer state" to get you in the right direction.

3) Get a subscription to Strafor and study the N. Korean military and their likely strategies should we attack them. How much artillery, tanks and men do they have right next to Seoul. How many millions would die in the Korean hoard raining south? Then look at the social and economic state of N Korea. Is that something we really want to deal with should be conquer them?

4) Oil does have something to do with the Iraq invasion but regional stability and reducing terrorism have a large part. Here, I would like you to google which Arab countries helped us in our Iraq invasion. Aside of Iran and Lebanon, please tell me which Arab countries did not base our troops, weapons or allow overflight rights. Then ask yourself, if we were there to steal all the oil, would these countries be in favor of it? Perhaps Saddam was a destabilizing force there? Perhaps a democracy in an oil rich state with better than average education rates would help stabilize the area thus reduce terrorism.

5) Ask yourself this. Do you think Iran will get a nuclear weapon in the next couple years? If your answer is in the affirmative, what do you think Saddam would have done to counter that threat?

6) Last, read up on the term "state interest."

That is all!

 

[Mamma]

He is actually quite correct.

A foreign policy that dictates we invade every nation that threatens to develop WMDs is both ill advised and completely unworkable.

Even had Iraq possessed WMDs the invasion was a poor strategic decision for the United Stantes.

Wrong. That is not our foreign policy. If you want to be educated, read up on my response to mesa and then to give you some homework:

Look up UN Resolutions against Iraq; Iraq's Gulf War I surrender agreement; ramifications to the world's oil supply should Iran and Iraq both no nuclear. Try to think not to think so short term in regards to whether the Iraq invasion was a good or bad idea. The fruits of the Iraq invasion will not be seen for a generation or two.

Now, was the Iraq war ill thought out? Did the Bush Admin completely bumble the aftermath? Did we screw it up by the numbers? You bet we did. But you did not ask that so I won't delve into it.

 

[Mamma]

So if oil was the reason, where is it all? Why aren't prices cheaper? Are we hoarding Iraqi oil, putting it in ships and storing it someplace?

Where did all of that precious oil go?

Ding Ding Ding!!!

 

[mesaserf]

Go back and correct it.

I can't unless someone knows a trick to doing it.

Show me irrefutable proof where oil was the reason for the Iraq invasion. Cite reputable sources, links, documents, personal knowledge, ect.

Well, I do remember someone in the Bush White House (I think it was Rumsfield) telling the press that the war would be paid off with Iraq oil. Other than numerous articles that you would just blow off as being leftest rants I would need a top secret clearance or a freedom of information act to do so. But then again you asked this so you can justify disregarding my comments and avoiding my questions. Fair enough.

Balls in your court. If you cannot provide proof for your allegations, I would recommend remaining quiet.

That's nice, I guess I'm the fool for trying to debate on flight info.

 

[mesaserf]

Mesa,
I would rather not do all your homework but I will give some help.

1) Study the Korean War and pay particular attention to Chinese involvement. Try and focus on why they became involved and what they were willing to sacrifice.

2) Study the history of Korea...emphasize on the geographical significance of it over the ages. I'll throw in "buffer state" to get you in the right direction.

3) Get a subscription to Strafor and study the N. Korean military and their likely strategies should we attack them. How much artillery, tanks and men do they have right next to Seoul. How many millions would die in the Korean hoard raining south? Then look at the social and economic state of N Korea. Is that something we really want to deal with should be conquer them?

4) Oil does have something to do with the Iraq invasion but regional stability and reducing terrorism have a large part. Here, I would like you to google which Arab countries helped us in our Iraq invasion. Aside of Iran and Lebanon, please tell me which Arab countries did not base our troops, weapons or allow overflight rights. Then ask yourself, if we were there to steal all the oil, would these countries be in favor of it? Perhaps Saddam was a destabilizing force there? Perhaps a democracy in an oil rich state with better than average education rates would help stabilize the area thus reduce terrorism.

5) Ask yourself this. Do you think Iran will get a nuclear weapon in the next couple years? If your answer is in the affirmative, what do you think Saddam would have done to counter that threat?

6) Last, read up on the term "state interest."

That is all!

Good points. Yes, If we did invade NK we would put a lot of civilians in harms way in Seoul. Not to mention the humanitarian problem that would develop in the aftermath. Also the Chinese response and/or involvement is a big factor. I think NK will just collapse on its own. Then the US and China will have to pick up the pieces.

Kuwait and Saudi Arabia were the major suppliers of bases for the invasion. Both have been in our pockets for years. We allowed Saddam to stay in power for years because he was a counter balance force against Iran. We played both sides against each other during the Iran-Iraq war to ensure neither side gained the upper hand. It only got out of control when Saddam invaded Kuwait. We could not allow him to become too strong. Hence the first gulf war.

We left Saddam in power because Bush Sr. knew Iraq was a tribal/religious mess that could spin out of control. Only later under Bush Jr. did Dick and Rummy decided that we could invade Iraq on the cheap and get control of those oil reserves. The rest is history.

Could Saddam have done something to counter the threat of a nuclear Iran? No. But let me ask you this. Did Iran begin its nuclear arms building, and then accelerated it because of the Iraq invasion? Or was it inevitable because of its increasing wealth and power?

If we cannot force a regime change in Iran with political pressure I think we will eventually have boots on the ground.

Who knows. Again, good points.

 

[mesaserf]

Ding Ding Ding!!!

Um.. Unless I missed something would not the oil still in the ground be considered oil reserves? You do know the stuff keeps pretty good while under ground, right?

Just asking.

P.S. It's been fun fellas but I have to sign off. I have a busy few days coming up and I have to get packed.

Peace out.

 

[Mamma]

Good points. Yes, If we did invade NK we would put a lot of civilians in harms way in Seoul. Not to mention the humanitarian problem that would develop in the aftermath. Also the Chinese response and/or involvement is a big factor. I think NK will just collapse on its own. Then the US and China will have to pick up the pieces.

Kuwait and Saudi Arabia were the major suppliers of bases for the invasion. Both have been in our pockets for years. We allowed Saddam to stay in power for years because he was a counter balance force against Iran. We played both sides against each other during the Iran-Iraq war to ensure neither side gained the upper hand. It only got out of control when Saddam invaded Kuwait. We could not allow him to become too strong. Hence the first gulf war.

We left Saddam in power because Bush Sr. knew Iraq was a tribal/religious mess that could spin out of control. Only later under Bush Jr. did Dick and Rummy decided that we could invade Iraq on the cheap and get control of those oil reserves. The rest is history.

Could Saddam have done something to counter the threat of a nuclear Iran? No. But let me ask you this. Did Iran begin its nuclear arms building, and then accelerated it because of the Iraq invasion? Or was it inevitable because of its increasing wealth and power?

Who knows. Again, good points.

Nice post. Much better grasp. But, aside of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, you forgot to mention Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Oman, Syria, Turkey, most of Europe and Eastern Europe. All had a hand in getting rid of Saddam.

Good point on Iran and their nuclear ambitions. I don't know the answer. I think they have always wanted a nuke so they could be a major player in the region vs western powers. A nuclear Iran and non Nuclear Iraq would have been an out of balance situation there so there is no way Saddam would have not tried to acquire one.

I still don't see where we are controlling any oil reserves. We are not paying for the war with oil nor are we stealing it. I think we should charge them in the form of oil and we should take some for a certain amount of time. But who am I to make that call.

Thanks for the back and forth.