PDT Doomed!!

[eightdriver]

It sounds like PDT is really doomed..... They are going to lose another 3 AC's next month. Oh well, thanks Mesa....

 

[Busterman]

Well I sure hope your wrong and I hate to spread more unsubstantiated rumor but I also just read that PDT's HR & Flight Pay dept.s have been deleted(Don't know where that's going, ALG?). Hopefully it's just some USeless-Air consolidation of the WO's, but it does kinda make you go hummmm! I personally think basic math would dictate a substantial savings with a consolidation of the WO's, but then so could complete outsourcing. I guess we'll find out more in April.

 

[jetdriven]

dont point the finger at Mesa, point the finger at Super Dave!

Jesus, you guys use SELCAL to order your crew meals!!

 

[AceCrackshot]

1) We don't have SELCAL

2) We have crew meals because we used to have a contract worth defending, until we had to compete with Mesa.

3) Blame for PDT's demise lies in many places, just like it does in the case of Eastern, Pan AM, TW and others.

4) Hate to let you in on this, sport, but JO isn't your friend.

"It was us today, it will be you tomorrow." Haile Selassie

 

[jetdriven]

I never said JO was my friend, hell we all think he's the antichrist. Your flying is going away becasue Super Dave is giving it away. Remember last year he said "we are getting out of the turboprop business."

PDT does not exist in a vacuum, if you cannot be competitive management will find a way to outsource yout flying. it even happened to us.

all this crap aside most of you PDT guys are professional and curteous to mesa pilots, but dont blame us for taking over florida, it was management who organized that.

 

[jetdriven]

if you dont have SELCAL then how does dispatch contact you enroute?

 

[AceCrackshot]

We have a company radio net that is SELCAL in nature, though not in operation. Honestly, I forgot to clutch my brain, we definately don't have ACARS. Sorry, my mistake. Too much beer.

Really, the basic issue that the WO have with the contract carriers is one of fairness. The Wholly--owneds have been profit centers for Group for quite a while. Quite honestly, I didn't believe this at first, until I started researching the Express div.

PDT was (at the time of the last contract negot.) considered one of the most efficient pilot groups in the industry (this was according to ALPA.) Now these savings were achieved in some wierd ways e.g permanent undermanning/lack of reserve, outbasing, extremely low overhead for facilities. However, we were paid completion factor, as are all Express carriers. And after much searching, I determined that our completion factor/rate was very competitive with the contract carriers. Now for the kicker.

Our "profits" are/were being returned to group, with the net effect of the wo running essentially a break even operation.
Now in the case of a contract carrier, completion factor essentially takes on the form of a cost plus type contract. Therefore, the feeling is that, as our operation is shrunk, and our contract gutted through various means, we are subsidizing the profit of a definately less labour friendly airline. Moreover, these companies pilots are discussing a concessionary TA while the company makes a profit.

Airways is also stuck in the position of liking the revenue that the RJ is producing, but unable to procure them for themselves. Also, they like being able to whipsaw Contract carriers to WO's, WO's to each other, and Contract carriers to each other. This type of whipsawing was primary reason for the founding of a national pilot's union. It is also the antithesis of a founding principle of ALPA, which is to remove pilot salary from as much as possible as a force of competition and comparision in the aviation business.

In this sadly, I'm sure you would agree, ALPA has failed.

 

[blzr]

To ALL OF MY PDT BRO'S

I hope I am not wrong AGAIN, but PDT won't be going anywhere. After Mar 31 we should find out Seagulls plan for us. Remember that we are changing our checklists to mirror mainline's, and changing our procedures.

Also, Seagull knows that the contracts have a HORRABLE customer service reputation. They, at the top, want a less expensive poeration, but not a CHEAP operation. PDT will be fine, and mesa and chitaqua will move on and open whore houses in United, American, and Delta neighborhoods.

 

[sabreliner]

Re: To ALL OF MY PDT BRO'S

PDT will be fine, and mesa and chitaqua will move on and open whore houses in United, American, and Delta neighborhoods.

Well, I hope PDT will be fine, but we don't want those others here either!!! You can have em!! I'm suprised enough to see Chataqua here already. Delta tried the low cost regional thing once already with Trans States, and drop them like a hot potato.

Then again, according to some of these guys, the fact that I don't qualify for food stamps means that my profitable airline isn't competitive with them. Gimme a break.

Good Luck to PDT and ALG.

A former ALG guys who saw the light...

 

[Beantown]

Re: To ALL OF MY PDT BRO'S

PDT will be fine, and mesa and chitaqua will move on and open whore houses in United, American, and Delta neighborhoods.

I hope all the WO's are fine. You deserve RJ's and hopefully they will be coming soon. That said, I don't think Mesa and Chit are going anywhere. Mesa has LONG term contracts and is ADDING at least 70 new airplanes in the next year+ at U. Chit has announced the formation of Republic solely for the purpose of flying RJ's at U. Companies don't make moves like these without GUARANTEES that U will full fill it's agreement (outside of BK). They couldn't get the financing for the planes with out it. Think about it, U had the chance to modify these contracts in BK to a shorter term. Instead, on day ONE of BK, they went into court and said that they want the judge to honor in full there contracts.

Good luck with the RJ's. Don't hold your breath on seeing the contract carriers go anywhere any time soon. Sorry dude. -Bean

 

[WileE]

AceCrackshot

On one hand you are griping about the TA for Mesa being concessionary (which it isn't, it's not a huge leap ahead but it's not going backwards) and on the other you are complaining how ALPA has failed to prevent the whipsawing that your companies are able to do against you. You seem to keep overlooking the biggest thing about this TA is industry leading scope that will prevent that from being used against Mesa again. That is what makes it worth voting this one in.

 

[j41driver]

How come you MESA guys think that your new scope language is so airtight? Eagle has language that says that all AA feed will be provided by Eagle. Pretty straight forward. Airtight. The arbitrator just ruled against them and AA is now free to grow TSA and CHQ if they so desire. I wouldn't call any scope language airtight these days. And no I don't work for any of the above mentioned carriers. Vote NO on this TA. You guys can do better than this.

 

[eaglefly]

Sorry J41, but your assumption is INCORRECT.

Eagle does not now, nor has ever had language that says "all AA feed will be provided by Eagle".

The only scope protection we have involves our CURRENT aircraft and routes.

Additionally, any aircraft owned by AMR Eagle must be staffed by pilots on our seniority list.

This ruling involved only the STL operation . The greivance on the 14 transferred A/C should result in the eventual transfer of our pilots or their sale to TSA.

Neither of those has occured yet and the owners are still AMR Eagle (several months after transfer of the first A/C).

In the future, you might want to research your claims a little better to lend more credibility to your statements.

 

[WileE]

As airtight as it could get.

The scope clause was written by the ALPA lawyers and is word for word what they submitted to the company. It is not a negotiated document, the company has not put any changes in the wording at all. That's why JO is hoping that this TA is turned down.

 

[blzr]

PDT DRIVERS KEEP YOUR HEAD UP!

The post that started this thread is not entirely false, but not entirely true either. It seems, this comming from staff at MidAtlantic, that the higher ups got together and came up with a brilliant idea. LETS COMBINE THE WHOLLY OWNED CARRIERS. Haven't the pilots been saying that for the better part of 10 years? Anyway, they are in the process of combining the payroll depts and H.R. depts. I just heard this last night from a friend that is on staff at MidAtlantic.

My theory is that Airways feed will be like Contenental Express in the near future. One carrier, as opposed to 13 or so, and all company employees that care and have a stake in the company. We'll see, but sounds to me like this is happening now. Any thoughts from the peanut gallery?

 

[surplus1]

Re: As airtight as it could get.

The scope clause was written by the ALPA lawyers and is word for word what they submitted to the company. It is not a negotiated document, the company has not put any changes in the wording at all. That's why JO is hoping that this TA is turned down.

Please! Ninety percent of ALL scope clauses were written by "ALPA lawyers" and ninety percent of them have been trashed by Company lawyers.

The problems at PDT/ALG/PSA, the current problem at MESA (Freedom) and the current problem at Chautauqua (Repulic) are ALL generated by Scope clauses written by ALPA lawyers and Jets for Jobs protocols, also written by ALPA lawyers.

When are you folks going to wake up?

ALPA has but one objective and that is to put as many major airline members into the cockptis of regional carriers as they can. If that happens to cost the regional pilots their contracts or their jobs, ALPA doesn't care! Its just one more time that you all have to eat an ALPA sh!t sandwich. Enjoy -- you seem to like it.

 

[WileE]

You just answered your own point.

Yes all scope clauses are written by ALPA lawyers. The difference with THIS scope clause and all the others is that the company lawyers did NOT trash it. In fact they did not even get a chance to change a single word. Why is that so difficult to get through your head? All the other clauses in the past were negotiated with the company lawyers, allowing the company to work out the loopholes and clauses they wanted. None of that happened here, that's the whole point. This is ALPA's dream scope, not a compromise like everyone else has.

 

[surplus1]

Re: You just answered your own point.

Yes all scope clauses are written by ALPA lawyers. The difference with THIS scope clause and all the others is that the company lawyers did NOT trash it. In fact they did not even get a chance to change a single word. Why is that so difficult to get through your head? All the other clauses in the past were negotiated with the company lawyers, allowing the company to work out the loopholes and clauses they wanted. None of that happened here, that's the whole point. This is ALPA's dream scope, not a compromise like everyone else has.

My friend, if it makes you happy that's great.

Do you honestly believe that because it was accepted "as is" by management that equates to perfection? That only means that it does not, at this time, contain anything that your management did not want. If and when, in the future, it conflicts with managements' effort to do business, they will find a way around it, just as they (and others) have all other scope clauses preceeding it.

Don't overlook the fact of why you got into this situation in the first place, i.e., because ALPA lawyers at USAirways, wrote a "perfect scope clause" that prevented MESA from doing business with a third party. MESA responded by creating Freedom, an entity not bound by that "perfect" scope clause.

That scope clause also gave MESAG the opportunity to use the "new alter ego" as leverage against you at the bargaining table. As a result, your ALPA lawyers were forced to write yet another "perfect scope clause". Bravo. What were you forced to do?

Give up all significant potential gains in your CBA, settle for substandard wages, work rules and benefits, accept abrogation of your seniority through "Jets for Jobs"

The "best scope in the business" (formerly at USAirways) was truly effective in keeping out the RJs -- and also contributed to the bankruptcy of the airline. Now it has been replaced. A new alter ego has been put in place at USAirGroup and the outsourcing of USAirways flying is greater than ever before or than anyone else.

You, will "benefit" from that -- you'll get more flying. Half of that flying will go to pilots from another airline, and all that you have to give up to get it is your seniority at your own airline, the contract improvements that you probably could have negotiated, and a large dose of your self respect (which apparently doesn't matter to you). However, you did get the "new and improved perfect scope clause"; until the next round.

That other one (at USAG) was once "ALPA's dream scope" as well. Looks like the dream has turned out to be a nightmare -- for MESA, for Chautauqua, for PDT, for ALG, for PSA, for the furloughed Midway pilots and TSA is next.

I'm happy that you like it, and I wish you nothing but the best. Looks like you're going to pay a big price for "ALPA's dream scope". To me, it seems to have come at too high a price, for far too many and much too late.

But, what do I know? Nothing. I'm just a cynic - "A blaggard who see things as they are rather than as they ought to be." - Voltaire

PS. For the record -- I am NOT blaming MESA pilots for anything. I don't agree with all the "MESA bashing" in these threads, and I think the MESA pilots are just the "victims" of the hour. You guys are in a very tough spot at a very tough time. It's not your fault. If there's anyone to blame in this mess, it may well be the "union" that created it all.

 

[blzr]

PDT an ALG

Last night in Pit, one of the PDT ALPA reps was saying that once we emerge from CH11, that not only will our H.R. and Payroll be combined, but our schedueling will be handled by Mainline. This could mean REAL reserve lines, and hopefully less sitting around on hard lines. To me, this means that we at PDT and ALG will be around for a while. We'll see.