PDK and their F'd-Up Approaches!!!

[ISaidRightTurns]

The atlanta satellite airport procedures are all there for a reason. Nothing to do with training or anything else. Even during IMC with approaches into FTY PDK ATL RYY and all the others, they still need 3 miles and a 1000 feet.

Its like cramming the autobahn down a dirt road. Everyone's going real fast until they wanna stop.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

RightTurns is correct, think of it this way: Its an IFR afternoon with winds out of the west. You have 2 inbounds for the ILS 20L at PDK, one C-17 doing the ILS 29 into MGE, and a couple more props being vectored for the VOR-A to land runway 26 at FTY. Then you have departures climbing off PDK eastbound. FTY and MGE both are only 10 miles or so from PDK. The finals for both of their runways not only cross each other, but they also cross right over the top of PDK. Trying to vector all of these airplanes keeping them 3 miles or 1000ft apart can easily get messy. Oh, and lets not forget that ALL of these satellite airplanes have to be kept below Hartsfield's arrival and departure streams. Speaking of Hartsfield, someone mentioned being slowed and vectored like crazy when departing satellites. Well, Hartsfield has just recently added a brand new set of RNAV arrivals and departures. If you're a bizjet departing a satellite airport then you're going to have to exit using the same departure gates as those ATL departures. However, since they are on an RNAV procedure and you're just on vectors, odds are that you will be vectored to fit into the gaps between them. Vectoring out of a departure gate is just like vectoring to a runway. Everyone has to be in a line, so this is why you're getting vectored and slowed.

I've always had a pretty strong interest in ATC, so its something that I've studied a bit over the past few years. While no controller is perfect, I try to keep in mind the things that those guys/girls have to deal with that we as pilots cannot always see looking out of the window or even on a TCAS. Also, controllers don't know what your specific aircraft can and cannot do. Some airplanes can drop like bricks with little effort at all, and others simply cannot. If what they are asking is going to put you or your passengers in an unsafe situation, simply tell them you can't do it. It may cost you an extra few minutes of vectoring, but its not worth putting yourself in a bad situation. Anyhow, thats my 2 cents.

 

[ISaidRightTurns]

Also, controllers don't know what your specific aircraft can and cannot do. Some airplanes can drop like bricks with little effort at all, and others simply cannot.

I think this applies more to the pilot. But it is a variable that needs to be considered.

CRJ1's = $*@!*

"Say rate of climb"
"480 FPM"

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

I learned to fly at PDK and currently based there, it's really not a hard airport at all. The thing I hate about most any airport is the taxi and PDk is very easy to taxi at.

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

I'd agree that VOR-A approach is a tough one in bad vis, at night. Easy to see the airport from a couple miles but not easy to make out the runway for 2R. They do seem to use that ILS sometimes with tailwinds. Not too big a deal. Been in there less than ten times. Wouldn't say it is all that busy. HPN and ACK in the summer are twice as busy. BED and TEB seem much busier as well.

Mr. I.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

THE VOR into 27 is not my favorite approach either.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

During low vis we used to ask to overfly the field and enter the left downwind for 2R if doing the VOR 27 circle. That seemed to help make it a bit easier. Tower always seems to want everyone to circle southeast, but if the vis is low that can become really difficult (especially in a jet).

 

[mnixon]

**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** piston drivers. Always running their mouths off.

Pretty interesting considering you have Piston A/c in your profile. Tool

 

[PA31Ho]

It probably isn't so bad if you are a flying a turbine in and out because you can keep up with the speed they need you to be at. But when going in there flying a Navajo or 421, forget about it... I've never had a decent setup going in PDK on IFR days.

 

[400A]

Keep in mind PDK is a training tower for controllers, although hopefully not during low IMC.

and if you think PDK is bad, try LZU. we'd consistently get bad vectors to the loc, sometimes they try to get us to join inside the marker. not a big deal if you'd configured early, but in the Lear we'd typically slow down a few miles away from GWNET. got to the point where we'd request 10 mile finals, but get vectored directly to the marker.

That is true, but you dont get those vectors from PDK tower, you get them from Atlanta.

 

[400A]

It probably isn't so bad if you are a flying a turbine in and out because you can keep up with the speed they need you to be at. But when going in there flying a Navajo or 421, forget about it... I've never had a decent setup going in PDK on IFR days.

It can be worse in the turbines, controller mistakes are often magnified by speed. I have found that comming in from the west, slowing down is the key, to be ready for the slam dunk.

 

[westwind driver]

I agree with the overhead for the left downwind Rwy 2R after shooting the VOR-27.

PDK's tower SOPs have the aircraft circle southeast. Anyone who knows the area knows the WSB has an extremely tall transmitter tower just SE of the airport, and there are numerous other towers to the south and southeast, TALL ONES. Plus, if I'm in the left seat, I have a much better vantage point for my turns and keeping the runway enviroment in site if I turn left.

I trained at PDK as well, have flown into/out of ATL, RYY, LZU and FTY and honestly on most days everything runs smoothly.

I think one thing a lot of people forget to do is obey the 200 kias rule while below the Atlanta class B. Not only does it help controllers sequence aircraft more efficiently, but it also allows us as pilots to respond to changes quickly, and serves to give us more time to think about things and get setup for our approach.

The high density of GA traffic in A80 tracon is another reason to slow it down. There is a huge mix of props and turbines. Remember there are a lot of training flights taking place in this airspace, and slowin her down increases our chances of seeing and avoiding traffic.

The problem with sequencing IFR arrivals during IMC is the restricted airspace between the airports. LZU is more of a problem with the ILS to rwy 25 because the a80 tracon/ztl artcc sector boundary is around 11-13 miles from the Rwy 25 Threshold. Therefore it is a tight turn on to the ILS and a short distance to the LOM.

Some controllers keep you closer to the extended centerline causing a really tight turn on, especially if you doing 210 kias or faster.

I think the combination of restricted space and too much speed leaves the controller with no option. He/she can only assume you will intercept and fly the approach.

So, lately when we're abeam the airport on downwind now, we deploy flaps 20 and fly Vref+30, which even at our highest landing weight will only be 160 kias.
It makes a world of difference.

I was also told by one of the LZU tower controllers that A80 generally has to point out and coordinate with ZTL in they need to run a final into LZU longer than 10 miles. He said on some days they coordinate it as a standing agreement between the sectors, and so the satelite controller doesn't have to intercom the center low sector. Center release a chunk of airspace 4000 and below in a sort of Rwy 25 extended centerline dumpbox.

So, yes they can dump us in. But don't forget they're extremely busy, even more so when the weather is down, so them and yourself a favor, slow the aircraft down and be patient.

 

[Moonfly201]

i expressed my opinion from my narrow point of view, in this case a corporate jet. could such an approach be handled easily in, say, a piston twin or single? i'm sure it could. slower approach speeds give you lots more options.

Depends on the aircraft. A slam dunk approach will not work in a Mooney, unless you're willing to buy re-conditioned cylinders on a regular basis to keep some controller happy. Many models of clean aircraft, regardless of engine type can either "slow down" or "go down" ... just not at the same time.

I can't even lower the gear until the IAS reads under 133 kts. Informing approach control that I can not except a slam dunk has resulted in some unappreciated tours around terminal airspace.