PCL Captains..

[BOHICAgain]

Too late for that. As Captain, it is my duty to assume you know nothing. That is the new reality. Like it or not.

That is a total extreme. As a captain I always came into the cockpit giving the FO the benefit of the doubt. By the time we are taxing out I can tell how much work I have to do and how much help I have up there.

 

[PCL_128]

Nope...sorry..... the new reality is guys are upgrading with less and less time. They are gaining more responsibility without the experience...

As you soon as you let the FO know that YOU know they have minimal flight time they turn into intimidated worthless boobs.

Who cares how much flight time they have. If you can't handle a 200TT FO, then bid back to FO yourself. Or call the schoolhouse and tell them you want more sim time, left seat style.

The Captains that can't handle the 200TT FO's are the low time Captains themselves and/or Captains that don't have much faith......in themselves....


You gonna be a tough Captain and call your "weak FO" off the trip.... guess who your replacement will be... your weak FO's Jet U training partner with 400TT.... now you've done it! Good job... you've just double your right seat expierence...


Bring on the new hire FO's....why?

I get to train them right and make them professionals. They are a blank check and I get to determine thier value... The tough part is unbuilding all the negativity that you programed into them....

Exactly!!!

 

[front9]

Sometimes what I learn from captains is what NOT to act/fly like.

Some CA’s do indeed set a good example of what not to do.

It's quite difficult sometimes to take a captain seriously that makes up (not interepret differently - make up) policies to support his own flight deck agenda,

And again your six months of experience gives you the knowledge to differentiate between made up policies and tribal knowledge. I’ve had many F/O’s tell me what I am doing is not SOP only to find out that this is just the way things are done in a particular airport. Ex. Ground operations in ORD once you land, you going to tell the CA to stop so you can contact ground? I’m not quite sure what you mean by flight deck agenda but if it dosent affect the safety of the aircraft or put the rest of the crew in any harm or trouble turn a blind eye & let the CA do his thing, after all it is HIS Ship.

has zero regard for passenger comfort, flys 9 out of 10 approaches unstable, and all the while is giving me advice while wearing a clip-on tie.

I’ve flown with many scary people in my time and have always tried to “assist” the CA when he/she does any of the items mentioned above. However, when trying to correct a CA on his technique always be tactful and respectful even if you don’t respect him.

Sure, I smile and thank these captains every time and learn a lot from it. I've been surviving my first year just fine.

And this is the way it should be, no matter where you are your first year motto needs to be “cooperate and graduate”

I think you're completely misreading what I posted, but that's okay. I knew one of the local FI "hotshots" here would come on to reply any second to "set me straight".

I don’t think I misread your post at all. I was a F/O once and guess what, I feel your pain. I know where you are coming from but in the end, it is YOU who needs to be a chameleon and adapt to whatever the CA wants. Just to give you an example, when I got hired I was the only one out of the six people who interviewed that day and I was damn lucky to get it with my 2000 hours. In contrast, you probably got hired cause you were breathing. Not trying to knock you but putting things into perspective, regionals are desperate right now and will take just about anybody. You are a first year F/O and will be treated as such until you prove your worth in the cockpit. Again your attitude shows that you still need some time to grow up and build a thicker skin.

All I'm saying is it's not necessary for some captains to set such a sh*ty tone right from the get-go. Every guy I've flown with that has been a pissy micromanaging wacko has offered little to learn from except for the fact that I'd rather not fly with 'em again. And trust me - every time I fly with one of these guys I do feel like my certificate is on the line. These are not the kind of people I would want my family flying in the back with during an emergency.

Your peers are the reason some CA’s have to set a Sh!TTy tone right from the start. Some new-hire F/O’s come in with a don’t tell me what to do attitude, unprepared for the flight, and think its cool not to know Sh!t about the airplane or regs. That pissy, micromanaging wacko probably wasn’t always that way, but over time had to adjust, just to survive. And if you think its bad now, just wait till you get to the majors where you will get a CA who will not put up with your Sh!t and run that airplane like he owns it. Luckily, the people you mention only make up about 10% of the pilot population and it sounds like you may have gotten more than your share in the first six months of your career. However, always keep in mind that no matter how bad you don’t like flying with them, they are still your CA and should be treated with the utmost respect. I’m sure when you upgrade you will want the same level of respect from your F/O’s.

Sure, I'm just a lowly 6-month FO. So what?

I rest my case.

 

[Uncle Bunkle]

Let me guess... Was it J.H.? He is known for micro-managing the hell out of you.

I was guessing either him or M.S.

 

[Lazy8]

Some CA’s do indeed set a good example of what not to do.



And again your six months of experience gives you the knowledge to differentiate between made up policies and tribal knowledge. I’ve had many F/O’s tell me what I am doing is not SOP only to find out that this is just the way things are done in a particular airport. Ex. Ground operations in ORD once you land, you going to tell the CA to stop so you can contact ground? I’m not quite sure what you mean by flight deck agenda but if it dosent affect the safety of the aircraft or put the rest of the crew in any harm or trouble turn a blind eye & let the CA do his thing, after all it is HIS Ship.




I’ve flown with many scary people in my time and have always tried to “assist” the CA when he/she does any of the items mentioned above. However, when trying to correct a CA on his technique always be tactful and respectful even if you don’t respect him.



And this is the way it should be, no matter where you are your first year motto needs to be “cooperate and graduate”



I don’t think I misread your post at all. I was a F/O once and guess what, I feel your pain. I know where you are coming from but in the end, it is YOU who needs to be a chameleon and adapt to whatever the CA wants. You are a first year F/O and will be treated as such until you prove your worth in the cockpit. Again your attitude shows that you still need some time to grow up and build a thicker skin.



Your peers are the reason some CA’s have to set a Sh!TTy tone right from the start. Some new-hire F/O’s come in with a don’t tell me what to do attitude, unprepared for the flight, and think its cool not to know Sh!t about the airplane or regs. That pissy, micromanaging wacko probably wasn’t always that way, but over time had to adjust, just to survive. And if you think its bad now, just wait till you get to the majors where you will get a CA who will not put up with your Sh!t and run that airplane like he owns it. Luckily, the people you mention only make up about 10% of the pilot population and it sounds like you may have gotten more than your share in the first six months of your career. However, always keep in mind that no matter how bad you don’t like flying with them, they are still your CA and should be treated with the utmost respect. I’m sure when you upgrade you will want the same level of respect from your F/O’s.

At what point did I say I was disrespectful to a captain? I guess you're just reading in your own captions here. I still don't quite understand why you feel the need to educate me on flight deck behavior that any 121 pilot new or old should practice.

I have no difficulties dealing with certain captains and I treat everyone with the same respect I would want myself. You are taking my comments and putting them into your own past situations which are clearly a lot different. I have my experiences - you have yours. You've been in my shoes, but everybody has a little bit different story to tell. I think it's common knowledge that we should be acting like a professionals regardless of who is sitting next to us. While your advice is good it's completely unwarranted in this entire thread.

Thanks anyway

 

[Lazy8]

I was guessing either him or M.S.

Neither but my sim partner flew with MS... quite the funny story there.

JH seems like a nice enough guy when I chatted with him a couple months ago.

Most of those guys are headed to Atlanta anyway.

 

[front9]

I still don't quite understand why you feel the need to educate me on flight deck behavior that any 121 pilot new or old should practice.

Because in the 14+ years in the industry (not all flying) I feel kids like you need to be educated on proper "flight deck behavior" cause you dont practice it. BTW, you came here to bitch and serve your opinion, I am just doing the same. Like I said before TIFWIW. Have a good day.

 

[Lazy8]

Because in the 14+ years in the industry (not all flying) I feel kids like you need to be educated on proper "flight deck behavior" cause you dont practice it. BTW, you came here to bitch and serve your opinion, I am just doing the same. Like I said before TIFWIW. Have a good day.

14 years, that's pretty good. I've been in it for 9 and I haven't been a kid in a while. Like I said - reading into my posts and making assumptions.

There is one thing you can teach me and probably many other folks that aren't fluent in cyber. TIFWIW??

You have yourself a super dooper day too!

 

[PCL_128]

I was guessing either him or M.S.

J.H. is a good guy. He gets a bad rap, and he doesn't deserve it. He did some of my newhire OE there, and I'm glad he did. I learned a lot from him that continues to serve me well years later.

I'm going a blank on M.S., though. Checkairman?

 

[sinkrate]

When you see a high employee number on your trip please do not automatically assume this person went to Jet U and you'll have to micromanage their duties the entire flight. I know you guys are burned out on instructing some of these 200 hour folks, but some of your newer FOs actually do know how to talk on the radio and can keep the shiny side up. Not all of us bought our jobs.

The wide range of experience levels in both seats presents one of the biggest CRM challenges to 'regional' pilots. The junior reserve CA that flys mostly with new hire low time FO's must develop a command routine to deal that situation, or he gets bit by it. It doesn't take long for this routine to become ingrained habit that is hard to break. When he is paired with a more experienced FO this habit that has served him well will be hard to let go of in one short trip. This can definetly lead to some friction. Use it as an opportunity to sharpen your CRM skills. Learn to let go of the things that don't matter. Don't take it personally. You will definetly need that CRM skill set when you move to the left seat. Once a CA moves up the list to the point he is paired with FO's that will be going to class shortly he will change his approach to AC command and become more of a mentor. A good FO can deal with both types of CA's and not let it get to him/her.

One of the better FO's I have been paired with dealt with a complete change in my approach in the middle of a trip, and never missed a beat. The FO was a very experienced, solid FO I pretty much let 'run the ship'. Then the Freindly Airman Association rep showed up with a point to prove. I knew what it was but did not have the opportunity to explain it to the FO. To deal with the situation I pretty much became CA tyrant and barked orders for evey little thing - wearing my best CRM smile. The FO, who was excellent with CRM skills, went with it and the Fed was denied his point.

I realize there are some jerks that are very hard to put up with. You will probably run into them your entire career. But, then again part of being a professional is going to work and getting along with the jerk that is sitting next you. That part won't change even when you move to the left seat. Develop some good CRM skills and you will find you aren't sitting next to a jerk any more.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The wide range of experience levels in both seats presents one of the biggest CRM challenges to 'regional' pilots. The junior reserve CA that flys mostly with new hire low time FO's must develop a command routine to deal that situation, or he gets bit by it. It doesn't take long for this routine to become ingrained habit that is hard to break. When he is paired with a more experienced FO this habit that has served him well will be hard to let go of in one short trip. This can definetly lead to some friction. Use it as an opportunity to sharpen your CRM skills. Learn to let go of the things that don't matter. Don't take it personally. You will definetly need that CRM skill set when you move to the left seat. Once a CA moves up the list to the point he is paired with FO's that will be going to class shortly he will change his approach to AC command and become more of a mentor. A good FO can deal with both types of CA's and not let it get to him/her.

Good perspective... its called followership. Most FO's do it well... others excel.

One of the better FO's I have been paired with dealt with a complete change in my approach in the middle of a trip, and never missed a beat. The FO was a very experienced, solid FO I pretty much let 'run the ship'. Then the Freindly Airman Association rep showed up with a point to prove. I knew what it was but did not have the opportunity to explain it to the FO. To deal with the situation I pretty much became CA tyrant and barked orders for evey little thing - wearing my best CRM smile. The FO, who was excellent with CRM skills, went with it and the Fed was denied his point.

Here is a problem.... we teach new Captains to show command authority...in fact the type ride demands it and so does OE and the Fed ride...

The problem is... when it is time to fly the line.. the baby Captains think Command and Control is the way to go... in part because it is the only way they've been told... or conditioned..

The good Captains shed the Top Down style and become a team orientated crewmember. The best captains actually flip the leadership-followership model upside down and become followers and let the FO's and FA's become leaders...

NOTE: It takes practice to do this..so don't decide to just try it out on your next trip....

I realize there are some jerks that are very hard to put up with. You will probably run into them your entire career. But, then again part of being a professional is going to work and getting along with the jerk that is sitting next you. That part won't change even when you move to the left seat. Develop some good CRM skills and you will find you aren't sitting next to a jerk any more.

Accidents occur because of [a lack of] people skills...not standard infractions... sure a limitation violation might be part of it.... but the accident link is heavy on human factors in todays environment...

 

[Tram]

Because in the 14+ years in the industry....

Iiiiimmmmmhmmmmmhmmmmm-presssssive...

I just showed your post to a guy with about twice your time in the industry and all he could say was..

That guys an ass...

 

[Tram]

Going into your flights already being pissed off about flying with someone you don't have to really sets a bad tone and makes things miserable for everyone.

I ran into a guy the other day who has been dealing with all the 200 hour wonder children..

One of the first sentences out of this mouth was..

"Have you flown through clouds before?"

I just kinda laughed and told him "Nahh, I was really hoping to fly through some this week, I brought my camera and everything.." At which time I whipped out my trusty Canon and showed it to him..

He detected the sarcasm immediately and relaxed pretty quick..

I think there are just too many guys dealing with trying to keep their FO's from getting them violated..

Been here for 6 months? When was your check ride?

 

[Papps]

When you see a high employee number on your trip please do not automatically assume this person went to Jet U and you'll have to micromanage their duties the entire flight. I know you guys are burned out on instructing some of these 200 hour folks, but some of your newer FOs actually do know how to talk on the radio and can keep the shiny side up. Not all of us bought our jobs.

Going into your flights already being pissed off about flying with someone you don't have to really sets a bad tone and makes things miserable for everyone. I've been here almost 6 months and I still have captains the feel the need to brief me on when/what/how I should talk to ATC, etc. It's a little funny, but seriously guys - not needed for everyone. You don't have to keep you instructor hat on all the time.

Don't get too bent out of shape, if you have the experience you say you do, you should be able to hold a captain vacancy soon, they are going crazy junior.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Once again I'm not bragging about my own abilities in the flight deck. I know I'm new. I'm still learning a lot. I go into every flight with an open mind and willingness to learn. Sometimes what I learn from captains is what NOT to act/fly like. It's quite difficult sometimes to take a captain seriously that makes up (not interepret differently - make up) policies to support his own flight deck agenda, has zero regard for passenger comfort, flys 9 out of 10 approaches unstable, and all the while is giving me advice while wearing a clip-on tie. Sure, I smile and thank these captains every time and learn a lot from it. I've been surviving my first year just fine.

I think you're completely misreading what I posted, but that's okay. I knew one of the local FI "hotshots" here would come on to reply any second to "set me straight". All I'm saying is it's not necessary for some captains to set such a sh*ty tone right from the get-go. Every guy I've flown with that has been a pissy micromanaging wacko has offered little to learn from except for the fact that I'd rather not fly with 'em again. And trust me - every time I fly with one of these guys I do feel like my certificate is on the line. These are not the kind of people I would want my family flying in the back with during an emergency.

Sure, I'm just a lowly 6-month FO. So what? I still know the difference between someone full of sh*t and someone legitimate.

The best advice I can give you- the same I give my fairly low time FOs now- is something I learned when I spent 6 years as an FO (and not by choice). Ready?

As an FO, you're writing a book about how to be a good captain. Every cappy you fly with has a chapter. If the captain is an a-hole, put it in your book and don't be like him. If the cappy is good, put it in your book and emulate him.

But the best advice is just quietly write your book, and run your cockpit as YOU see fit when you're the captain, because you WILL NOT change him. His captaining style is a direct result of HIS right seat experience, which may not have been very long. But either way, he probably doesn't care what you think... he's going to keep doing it his way. As they say, "when you're the captain, you always fly with your favorite captain".