PCL ALPA Statement on 3701

[328dude]

No, what I'm saying is that a new Captain with no time in type should be paired with an FO that has been flying the plane for at least 1000 hours. Green on green is a bad combo. I just think that one of the two pilots should have significant time in type. If you take two turboprop drivers and put them into a brand new jet that neither has any time in and throw an unusual situation at them (unusual attitude, dual flameout, engine fire, etc...) then you're going to get a bad result. Someone needs to have some experience in type and experience at the company. You shouldn't have two newbies in the same flight deck.

Ok, I see what your saying. Only reason I brought this up is that we had a huge problem when we received the CRJ's at PSA. First, they retired the old Dorniers and replaced them with the CRJ's. Now your faced with putting very senior Captains and very senior FO's together in an airplane that both have never flown.

Our situation was a little bit diffrent, but I's a firm believer in the quality of the training you recieve. Granted, we had some very stringent gren on green rules, but the experience of both the Capt and FO (even though never flown the CRJ) still played a role in good CRM from their experience in the Dornier and being at a company for so long.

I'm only speaking of the original PSA guys and not the J4J-ber's.

 

[Chosen One]

http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/...View.aspx?itemid=1616&ModuleId=1316&Tabid=256

So I'm guessing this "core lock" was the pilots fault as they didn't do memory item #2 right away: ("engines continue to spool down, both thrust levers to shut off"). Did they torch the engines leaving the thrust levers at their cruise position? ALPA is making it sound like this "core lock" phenomenon just happens automatically after compressor stall on the CF-34B. Are they reaching a bit here just to defend the pilots?

 

[PCL_128]

Core lock can only take place if the rotation of the engine is stopped and there is insufficient air to turn the core of the engine. It's not a result of the memory items not being done, it's a result of the engine suddenly stopping and not having any airflow for a minute as it rapidly cooled. The inner core stopped rotating and cooled down causing it to "lock."

 

[Chosen One]

Core lock can only take place if the rotation of the engine is stopped and there is insufficient air to turn the core of the engine. It's not a result of the memory items not being done, it's a result of the engine suddenly stopping and not having any airflow for a minute as it rapidly cooled. The inner core stopped rotating and cooled down causing it to "lock."

Gotcha, I was thinking it was due to fuel continuing to dump while the engine had stopped rotation (and noticing on the transcripts it took them quite a while to start the memory items (cont. ignition on), those thrust levers must have been up there the whole time). Did not realize it was due to vaporization.

 

[donaldd]

My groundschool instructors at Pinnacle:

>Guy with a subsitute-teaching background

>Guy who was a former ramp agent turned ground school instructor

>Guy who was a KC-10 boom operator for 20 years

(None of the above 3 even have a Private certificate)

>Furloughed DAL pilot who was so in love with himself, his "Jet Upset" course involved insulting all the furloughed NWA guys in the class, followed by comments such as "Sometimes I put on my Delta uniform and look at myself in the mirror."

Lets talk about sim training....my first Instructor in the sim would talk on his cellphone while we were flying. One day he invited his mistress into the simulator to watch. By watch, I mean take him out of the loop and make out with him.

No, I'm not kidding.

Never once was there any training on high-altitude considerations.

Never once did I see the climb charts come out in the class, or the cockpit.

The high-altitude training in the sim consisted of us being slewed up to 350 and yanking the controls around a little bit.

I don't care what your experience level is... If you have that above training and your common sense is low, you're an accident waiting to happen. Plain and simple.

You have got to be kidding me! If all that stuff is true(and I have no reason to doubt you), Pinnacle is more screwed up than I originally thought. Sounds like Pinnacle needs a serious house cleaning starting from the top down!

 

[Inconceivable]

That was the extent of my upgrade/transition training in 2000.

I had the ramper--he read from the powerpoint notes, but did not understand what he was saying. If we had questions he would telephone one of the initial cadre on a break.

No sh!t. Greg B. He also moonlighted as a hubbite for FDX. Tosses bags by day, boxes by night. Teaches CRJ ground school.

 

[PCL_128]

No sh!t. Greg B. He also moonlighted as a hubbite for FDX. Tosses bags by day, boxes by night. Teaches CRJ ground school.

Believe it or not, he's in seminary at Princeton now.

 

[Inconceivable]

No! He was the most immoral pathological liar I've ever met--and that's saying alot having been at four airlines!

 

[AutoCars Armed]

Pinnalce does need a house cleaning. But more importantly, all airlines need to realize there is not pilot shortage. If you pay us a respectable wage there are thousands of higher time and qualified pilots out there. This will never happen but I wish the FAA would shutdown all the PFT schools.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I was thinking it was due to fuel continuing to dump while the engine had stopped rotation (and noticing on the transcripts it took them quite a while to start the memory items (cont. ignition on), those thrust levers must have been up there the whole time). Did not realize it was due to vaporization.

Still not following what you are thinking, but remember that the engine fuel pump and fuel control unit are driven by the accessory gearbox, which is driven by the N2 compressor. It is alleged that the N2 stopped and froze into position due to differential cooling - hence there would not have been any rotation to the accessory gearbox.

I don't have the figures for the CF-34, but it would not surprise me if the fuel pressure on the outlet side of the engine fuel pump is in excess of 730 PSI to ensure atomization of the fuel at the nozzles and power the variable stators in the compressor section. The nozzles have a spring loaded valve that closes when there is insufficient fuel pressure ( to keep fuel from draining into the engine and potentially causing hot starts )

Differential cooling was also cited the 737 Rudder PCU investigations and the allegations were never proven to everyone's satisfaction. The conditions have to be very, very, extreeme for this to happen, or else these engines would be seizing at start and shutdown all the time. I would guess that the engine cools more rapidly at -40C at sea level than it does at ISA at FL410 due to air density.

What I strongly suspect is that air density had everything to do with this loss. Obviously the airplane can fly at FL410 all day, every day, if it is light enough and cool enough to get there with sufficient speed.

Those big cowlings are there for a lot more reason than to shroud the fan. Those cowlings are huge turbochargers that are in effect the first stage of compression for the engine. The more air you shove in the engine, the more power it can produce ( and the higher the N1 carat )

And it is not so easy to accelerate up there. To go from 150 knots indicated to 250 KIAS is actually an increase of around 182 knots TAS. With no thrust, in the dark and the airplane depressurizing we are not talking cake.

I think ( and hope ) we will see the FAA be much more restrictive regarding green on green pairings. These guys did not know that this would get them in trouble. Putting Captains with less than 500 hours together with very experienced First Officers, or vice versa would procedurally stop anything like this from happening.

And even now, I fear som people are getting the wrong message on this. If you can stay on profile and go high in an RJ, fine. I've been to FL390 several times with weights over 47K and will do it again if the conditions make that the right place to be. But if you can't climb at at least 290KIAS or the greater of M.70/ 250 you have no business at that altitude.

 

[PCL_128]

I've been to FL390 several times with weights over 47K and will do it again if the conditions make that the right place to be.

Umm, what climb charts do you guys have? The 300 fpm 250/.70M chart shows a max altitude of about FL380 at that weight even at ISA+0. Unless you guys have the 100 fpm climb capability chart in your books, then it's probably not a good idea to go that high at that weight.

 

[Top Gum]

You have got to be kidding me! If all that stuff is true(and I have no reason to doubt you), Pinnacle is more screwed up than I originally thought. Sounds like Pinnacle needs a serious house cleaning starting from the top down!

CRM training at Pinnacle:

Did you guys have to sit through the 20 minutes of Abbott and Costello’s “Who’s On First" skit?

This was all fun but indeed a pitiful demonstration of how one pilot sees things differently than another.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Umm, what climb charts do you guys have? The 300 fpm 250/.70M chart shows a max altitude of about FL380 at that weight even at ISA+0. Unless you guys have the 100 fpm climb capability chart in your books, then it's probably not a good idea to go that high at that weight.

Again the operative phrase, "if the conditions make that the right place to be." Perhaps we were lighter than 47K, or it was cooler, and I've just forgotten. It only happens in the deep winter time and that was several months ago.....

 

[donaldd]

.....

 

[Chosen One]

Still not following what you are thinking, but remember that the engine fuel pump and fuel control unit are driven by the accessory gearbox, which is driven by the N2 compressor. It is alleged that the N2 stopped and froze into position due to differential cooling - hence there would not have been any rotation to the accessory gearbox.

You're making it sound as if N2 went immediately to 0% and locked. Not true. They spooled down slowly once the stall occured. Fuel was still being poured into the engines. I would imagine that the crew's attempt to eventually relight the right engine with a bunch of residual fuel would be akin to starting an engine on the ground with the thrust levers accidentally left in idle. HOT HOT HOT. I may be completely off as to how that engine was completely fried, but I do believe this Core Lock discussion is ALPA smoke to try and take some heat off of the pilots for their actions. The only time Bombardier experienced it was once during its normal core lock test.

 

[PCL_128]

but I do believe this Core Lock discussion is ALPA smoke to try and take some heat off of the pilots for their actions.

I think you got it right on the money on that.

 

[100LL... Again!]

I think you got it right on the money on that.

Agreed.

And when you refuse to 'fess up about your faults, your credibility is further diminished. THAT isn't helping the profession either.

I hate this no-fault society we are buidling.

THEY F-ED UP, it happens. This needs to be admitted openly.
This reminds me of that wife of the AA pilot who feels that her successful lawsuit proves in her mind that her husband wasn't at fault in the little rock crash. Sorry, honey, your sweetie made an error, and lying to yourself ain't gonna change that.

 

[Inconceivable]

GE and the FAA seem to be trying pretty hard today to say "we don't really know if there is such a thing as core lock. and if there is, this isn't it. it could only be core lock if it were within the RESTART ENVELOPE"

I was disgusted by Alpa saying in a press release yesterday "The NTSB investigation makes it clear that if just one of the two stalled engines had restarted, this accident would never have occurred. The facts show that the pilots followed the proper procedures and attempted to restart their engines multiple times. But both engines failed to restart because they had suffered ‘core lock' "

I just don't read the CVR/FDR data that way. Proper procedure. I'm calling shenanigans.

There are many safety problems (and corelock may be one of them) that ALPA needs to address--but to make that statement in light of the actions WHICH PRECIPITATED THE ACCIDENT is just wrong. Alpa has the credibility of Al Jazeera with that kind of logic.

 

[MACH-TUCK]

My sympothys to the families of 3701....This is probably a really tough time for them.

Im a fairly new FO at Pinnacle, and im one of the few that did not come from Gulfstream. But, I must say, that I was really impressed with some of these guys and how they were able to handle this airplane with such little time. So props to those GS guys and gals. I don't think its a Gulfstream issue in this accident, I think it was more like a combination of low time CA and FO. Regardless of whether they were from gulfstream or not.

I must say the training at Pinnacle was probably another major factor in this accident...The bottom line is the training was horrible, in my case anyway.....The GND school was a waste of good study time. The teacher didn't know a dang thing about the aircraft...If someone asked a question, he would say "I don't know, and if my lips are moving, im probably lieing to ya."

I think Pinnacle grew way to fast, without hiring enough management and quality instructors to handle the amount of training that was going to be done.

 

[TonyC]

Agreed.

And when you refuse to 'fess up about your faults, your credibility is further diminished. THAT isn't helping the profession either.

I hate this no-fault society we are buidling.

THEY F-ED UP, it happens. This needs to be admitted openly.

I don't see ALPA claiming that the pilots were without blame. Do you think anybody else will stand up for the pilots other than ALPA?

The Comapany would prefer the pilots bear all the blame.

The manufacturers would prefer the pilots bear all the blame.

The FAA would prefer the pilots bear all the blame.

The pilots deserve an advocate, and ALPA is filling that role.

We all make mistakes - - should the consequence in each case be the death penalty?

No, the pilots should have never gotten themselves into the pridicament where they found themselves, but I believe the death penalty was a bit severe. The engine should have restarted.





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[MJG]

No, the pilots should have never gotten themselves into the pridicament where they found themselves, but I believe the death penalty was a bit severe. The engine should have restarted.

Very true but the pilots involved took risks, risks that they didn't have to take and paid with their lives. To say that it's "a bit severe" that they paid with their lives is only denying the reality of this profession. This job is as safe or unsafe as you make it. The consequences for intentionally making it unsafe are severe. The pilots paid the ultimate price for being stupid. Maybe they weren't stupid individuals but they certainly lacked the maturity that should come along with this job. May their souls rest in peace.

Reading these transcripts makes me sick to my stomach. I feel horrible for their families that now have to go through this ordeal all over again, now knowing what went on in those final few moments. I also feel for all the professional pilots of Pinnacle who will now forever be second guessed.

We live in a society that loves to give second, third and fourth chances. That's fine for most of the ordinary things in life. Flying however is not one of those ordinary things. The sad truth is that you are lucky to get a second chance in this profession regardless of whether or not you "deserve it". These two unfortunately did not get a second chance and it's a terrible tragedy.


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[CubanSmoker]

This job is as safe or unsafe as you make it. The consequences for intentionally making it unsafe are severe.

We live in a society that loves to give second, third and fourth chances. That's fine for most of the ordinary things in life. Flying however is not one of those ordinary things. The sad truth is that you are lucky to get a second chance in this profession regardless of whether or not you "deserve it". These two unfortunately did not get a second chance and it's a terrible tragedy.
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Very, VERY well said.

RIP guys...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I also feel for all the professional pilots of Pinnacle who will now forever be second guessed. .

Wrong!

Rogues exists in all organizations, including medical. There have been rogues in the US Navy, USAF, USMC and Army.

Rogues don't speak for anyone but themselves....

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0070349274/qid=1118791305/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/104-5151516-8137507?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

 

[PCL_128]

Wrong!

Rogues exists in all organizations, including medical. There have been rogues in the US Navy, USAF, USMC and Army.

Rogues don't speak for anyone but themselves....

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0070349274/qid=1118791305/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/104-5151516-8137507?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Rez, I wish you were right, but the truth is that many of our peers are always going to wonder whether the guy sitting up front in that Pinnacle airplane is just like these two. We will be second-guessed whether it's fair or not. We have to live with the consequences of someone else's behavior. It's not fair, but that's just how things are.

 

[Lear70]

Rez, I wish you were right, but the truth is that many of our peers are always going to wonder whether the guy sitting up front in that Pinnacle airplane is just like these two. We will be second-guessed whether it's fair or not. We have to live with the consequences of someone else's behavior. It's not fair, but that's just how things are.

Exactamundo. Funny,,, ever since the accident, every single pilot pass rider I have (NWA or MSA pilots with more than 5 years seniority riding free in the back) have stopped by "just to say hi." I can count on one hand the number of times that happened in the previous three years before that.

Incidentally, one of the reports says that the engine had shiny wear spots in exactly the way the manufacturer says "core lock" shows up. The GE guy says that there WAS N2 rotation, but that it was too negligible to show up on the gauges and that some type of hydraulic pressure reading was proof of it. Personally, it looked less like ALPA trying to cover up than Bombardier and G.E. covering up today during the hearing. Both manufacturers are looking at a lot of exposure because of the lack of testing that was done in a "real-world" scenario of core lock.

 

[PCL_128]

Personally, it looked less like ALPA trying to cover up than Bombardier and G.E. covering up today during the hearing. Both manufacturers are looking at a lot of exposure because of the lack of testing that was done in a "real-world" scenario of core lock.

That's possible. To be honest, both parties (ALPA and GE/Bombardier) have a vested interest in proving it's the other guy's fault. ALPA's job is to alleviate the pilots of as much responsibility as possible, and GE is trying to cover their butts too. I don't know if we'll ever know for sure whether "core-lock" really took place here or not.

 

[nimtz]

I think Pinnacle grew way to fast, without hiring enough management and quality instructors to handle the amount of training that was going to be done.

This is a good point. One of the best things ever to happen to XJet was Western Pacific going out of business about the same time Xjet's explosive growth started. As a result some of the best available minds were looking for jobs the same time XJet needed quality instructors. Now Xjet has one of the best training departments at the regional level.

 

[100LL... Again!]

...ALPA's job is to alleviate the pilots of as much responsibility as possible...

While I understand that this is ALPA's "job" to do this, I still think it would give more credibility to ALPA if the did not try to defend these type of actions.

ALPA is not a defense attorney for public opinion cases.
Trying to shift the blame here only makes pilots look like they are unwilling to step up to the plate and uphold these "professional standards" that everyone wants the public to think we posses.

John Q. Public is going to come to the conclusion that these two were a couple of incompetent doofuses who had no business in an airliner (the CA, at least).

How will you try to talk them out of that notion? If we are really certain that they were an isolated case, then why should ALPA expend PR capital (not money, but cred) on someone who gave us a black eye?

 

[Dodge]

Lear70,
Unless the MSA pilot is riding your jumpseat, that pilot is not riding for free. MSA pass riders pay on your airline just as we do at NWA. So, if they are riding for free, they better be saying hi, asking if you'll let them on board, and you should be checking their credentials.

 

[TonyC]

While I understand that this is ALPA's "job" to do this, I still think it would give more credibility to ALPA if the did not try to defend these type of actions.

ALPA is not a defense attorney for public opinion cases.
Trying to shift the blame here only makes pilots look like they are unwilling to step up to the plate and uphold these "professional standards" that everyone wants the public to think we posses.

John Q. Public is going to come to the conclusion that these two were a couple of incompetent doofuses who had no business in an airliner (the CA, at least).

How will you try to talk them out of that notion? If we are really certain that they were an isolated case, then why should ALPA expend PR capital (not money, but cred) on someone who gave us a black eye?

I don't see that ALPA is trying to defend the actions of the pilots at all. I see them shining lights on OTHER contributing factors.

The pilots gave us ample ammunition to say, "Yepp, it's their fault!" close the book, and move on. This course of action would do nothing to improve the ratio of managers to pilots, it would do nothing to improve the training program, it would do nothing to improve the information made available by the manufacturers to the pilots about operating their airplanes and engines at high altitudes, it would do nothing to improve FAA oversight of rapidly expanding flight operations ... nothing would change.

ALPA is looking out for the guys that are still flying these things, and that will fly them in the future. ALL of the mistakes must be examined, and lessons learned from them. If not for ALPA, who would be advocating for pilots?








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