PCL ALPA Factual Statement 13Jun05

[shamrock]

Just reading the airspeeds/mach numbers they were flying at makes me cringe.

 

[TonyC]

Reread the portion I've quoted... YES.. THE FO WAS IN THE LEFT SEAT

That means that twice, on the way up with the autopilot engaged, and on the way down without the autopilot, NOBODY was is the seats as they swapped.









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[elguapo9]

That means that twice, on the way up with the autopilot engaged, and on the way down without the autopilot, NOBODY was is the seats as they swapped.
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To me, this isn't as big a deal as the total lack of judgement and professionalism of the crew. I mean, when the Capt goes to take a leak, the FA sits in the CAPTAINS seat.

This accident is a direct result of the lack of high-altitude and/or swept-wing aerodynamics and performance being taught at most regionals. Agreed, should be required reading and discussion for all training events. Right up there with 'The Day All Hell Broke Loose'.

 

[Dodge]

This accident is a direct result of the lack of high-altitude and/or swept-wing aerodynamics and performance being taught at most regionals. Agreed, should be required reading and discussion for all training events. Right up there with 'The Day All Hell Broke Loose'.

And there it is. Still though, airmanship is required.

 

[TonyC]

To me, this isn't as big a deal as the total lack of judgement and professionalism of the crew. I mean, when the Capt goes to take a leak, the FA sits in the CAPTAINS seat.

To me, it's yet another example of the gross poor judgment and vacuum of professionalism. At least when the FA is sitting in the Captain's seat, there's a qualified pilot in the right seat. In this case, there was no warm body in EITHER seat. The Captain is allowed to leave his seat, and the FO is allowed to leave the seat, but they're not allowed to leave both seats at the same time. There was no FA present to facilitate this seat swap - - they were the only two on board.


I guess we have THAT to be thankful for.

This accident is a direct result of the lack of high-altitude and/or swept-wing aerodynamics and performance being taught at most regionals.

I believe the lack of appropriate training will be a contributing factor, not the "direct cause." This crew's problems began long before they reached a high altitude, and they had nothing to do with the shape of the wing.







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[mullet]

To me, this isn't as big a deal as the total lack of judgement and professionalism of the crew. I mean, when the Capt goes to take a leak, the FA sits in the CAPTAINS seat.

In that scenario, at least one flight crew member is at their assigned station. Flight #3701, had two instances of zero flight crew at their station. The thing I cant get over, is the F/O had really no experience less than 800 hours and yet he was comfortable doing those things. At 800 hours I wouldnt even be comfortable flying without headsets.

 

[PCL_128]

An even bigger problem with the "swap" on the way down was the fact that the AP was off at the time. What would happen if they hit a wake at that moment and it knocked the aircraft into a hard bank angle? When I'm dealing with an emergency the last thing I want to do is add to the problems with things like a seat swap.

 

[elguapo9]

The thing I cant get over, is the F/O had really no experience less than 800 hours and yet he was comfortable doing those things. At 800 hours I wouldnt even be comfortable flying without headsets.

Agreed. I'm also embarassed by the '410 it dude', 'long as your above redline', and other comments from the tape. Further proof that these guys didn't understand what they were messing with.

This accident occured while I was in systems training for a well-known regional. The instructor spent much extra time on high-altitude stuff, ISA deviations, stall windows, etc. "I wasn't going to get into this, but it looks like I need to". Should be standard on the syllabus.

 

[SlapShot]

This accident is a direct result of the lack of high-altitude and/or swept-wing aerodynamics and performance being taught at most regionals. Agreed, should be required reading and discussion for all training events. Right up there with 'The Day All Hell Broke Loose'.

I guess most jet regional do not talk about Mach tuck and the coffin corner in ground school. Perhaps these aerodynamic phenomenons should be added to all ground school syllabi. I do not fly a jet but I think I would have been a little concerned to see .57 @ FL410.



I am in no way bashing the crew of PCL 3701 and may they rest in peace. But like all accidents I hope we can learn from this.



Regarding “THE DAY ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE”, are you kidding me? That movie is such a joke. It should have been called THE DAY A COUPLE OF AIRPLANES WENT AROUND IN DEN. I had to sit through that movie so many times at Riddle. I know the point of the movie but I thought the video blew the whole thing out of proportion.

 

[redflyer65]

As personal experience, I've had the shaker come on at around 37,000 ft.. Did it shake right above the red line like it does in the sim at 10,000ft? No it didn't it came on just below the green line with 50px in the back. I gently held pressure against the shaker, but immediately requested lower, and got it. I started the descent and re-egaged the autopilot. Done deal. I only wish they had done the same.

At no time in training was I informed at what airspeed the shaker would come on for a given weight and temp. It was simply not covered. And I might add, we were climbing to an altitude that we were filed at. After having a discussion with dispatch, I found that we should have never been filed for that altitude on that day. IT WAS A NEWBIE DISPATCHER that didn't know any better. Go figure.