Sgt. Hartman
What do we get for $10?
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2005
- Posts
- 164
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
PC 12 down???
- Thread starter pc12_driver
- Start date
- Watchers 14
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
AA717driver
A simpler time...
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2003
- Posts
- 4,908
Flybet3
Fly for me! Get my Bonus!
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2004
- Posts
- 1,745
I dont mean to sound rude, or heartless but this is what happens when rich folks decide that they want to fly an airplane instead if hiring a professional pilot. I rightseated for a guy that flew in the CJ over at simuflite, I have no idea how this guy got his type!!!??? This guy was an accident waiting to happen. But when I asked him how much time he had in the airplane he responded with arrogance "125 hours"...
PC12Cowboy
Berry Beery Bad
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2003
- Posts
- 561
the 12 is certified for flight into known Icing and has an ice pusher mode...and a seperator.....and it takes a lot of ice to overload that plane...but if you dont activate the systems...it WILL be an undesireable outcome..I'm still trying to figure out how a turbine sputters tho???? did you see the pic of the other son staring at the wreckage...to bizarre
"Sputterring?" Without engaging the Seperator, 'significant' ice accumulations restricting airflow to the motor would cause a compressor
stall and even a flow reversal. Inside the plane it is a mild popping sound while outside it sounds like gunshots. It would be curious to see a radar data track. No one comes out of the clouds in a nose down attitude for 1700' in controlled flight.
ICE is only an instigator. It does not bring airplanes down. A Pilot's/Crew's failure to address the ice is what brings aircraft down. Anyone who has been flying around the northeast and OH Valley for the last week or more, knows there has been a weird inversion hanging around. Better than freezing at the surface and M0*C in the clouds and above freezing above the clouds. The Travelair was aware the whole time and alert for icing because he read the forecast and expected it. Sweating the whole time to punch through the front before his 'uncertified for known ice' aircraft held a similar fate. I take UA's from guys like this and the C172 as well, with a grain of salt. They are out where they knew they shouldn't have been and ruin everyone elses day by telling on themselves when they say, "Oh, it was only forecast for LT-MOD, but Man0Oh-Man, that schiznit was, SEVERE! WOW!". PC12 dude dropped out of the FL24*'s where it was really cold and got complascent descending through 10K', popped right into the clouds where a significant amount of precip, freezing temps with his ice cold airframe. I agree with another post here regarding a professional who likely would have been reduced to Gear and Radio Boy. But, I believe self preservation would have kicked in and such a presence would have noted the position of de/anti-ice switches prior to entering those conditions. I would be suprised if NTSB notes thes switches in their proper settings. I submit the aircraft was flying just fine until dude threw a bunch of flaps and gear out for landing. He got really slow from there and probably had the stall and AOA horn (if they weren't frozen) pounding on his head so much that he didn't hear the compressor stall telling him his power advancement was going nowhere.
Now, how is that for a 'litteral' Monday morning QB. 'Scuse the attitude, but I just saw my premiums take another hike in the -12 with this dumbarses' stupid human trick. Oh, just wait until all these little 'personal jets' start dropping like flies. I like that bit with the CJ guy and a proud 125 hours. That's a nice industry forecast right there.
Another wonderful and perfectly good airplane reduced to pepsi cans. and milk bottles. Tough beat for the kid at school.
Really, guys and gals, you see these people out there every day and you know their background, who are you hurting by asking these individuals for a moment of their time and privately expressing your concern for their safety, that of their passengers and their investment by not having an experienced and qualified individual as crew for a significant amount of time as they transition to the new aircraft? Probably you are hurting their pride. SO, WHAT! done right and in PRIVATE, they will get over it and give it as sincere a consideration as you relay to them. DON'T be hatin' or offering your services for an aircraft like this that you have zero time in. Anyone can fudge their way through any piston twin. PT6's, Garrett's, Allison's and jet's are whole new animals and much study is needed to understand their operation. Everyone knows someone with more advanced training and experience who is looking for a job. Refer such qualified individuals for such tasks. The world will be a lot safer place and people's lawns will quit getting messed up.
100-1/2
stall and even a flow reversal. Inside the plane it is a mild popping sound while outside it sounds like gunshots. It would be curious to see a radar data track. No one comes out of the clouds in a nose down attitude for 1700' in controlled flight.
ICE is only an instigator. It does not bring airplanes down. A Pilot's/Crew's failure to address the ice is what brings aircraft down. Anyone who has been flying around the northeast and OH Valley for the last week or more, knows there has been a weird inversion hanging around. Better than freezing at the surface and M0*C in the clouds and above freezing above the clouds. The Travelair was aware the whole time and alert for icing because he read the forecast and expected it. Sweating the whole time to punch through the front before his 'uncertified for known ice' aircraft held a similar fate. I take UA's from guys like this and the C172 as well, with a grain of salt. They are out where they knew they shouldn't have been and ruin everyone elses day by telling on themselves when they say, "Oh, it was only forecast for LT-MOD, but Man0Oh-Man, that schiznit was, SEVERE! WOW!". PC12 dude dropped out of the FL24*'s where it was really cold and got complascent descending through 10K', popped right into the clouds where a significant amount of precip, freezing temps with his ice cold airframe. I agree with another post here regarding a professional who likely would have been reduced to Gear and Radio Boy. But, I believe self preservation would have kicked in and such a presence would have noted the position of de/anti-ice switches prior to entering those conditions. I would be suprised if NTSB notes thes switches in their proper settings. I submit the aircraft was flying just fine until dude threw a bunch of flaps and gear out for landing. He got really slow from there and probably had the stall and AOA horn (if they weren't frozen) pounding on his head so much that he didn't hear the compressor stall telling him his power advancement was going nowhere.
Now, how is that for a 'litteral' Monday morning QB. 'Scuse the attitude, but I just saw my premiums take another hike in the -12 with this dumbarses' stupid human trick. Oh, just wait until all these little 'personal jets' start dropping like flies. I like that bit with the CJ guy and a proud 125 hours. That's a nice industry forecast right there.
Another wonderful and perfectly good airplane reduced to pepsi cans. and milk bottles. Tough beat for the kid at school.
Really, guys and gals, you see these people out there every day and you know their background, who are you hurting by asking these individuals for a moment of their time and privately expressing your concern for their safety, that of their passengers and their investment by not having an experienced and qualified individual as crew for a significant amount of time as they transition to the new aircraft? Probably you are hurting their pride. SO, WHAT! done right and in PRIVATE, they will get over it and give it as sincere a consideration as you relay to them. DON'T be hatin' or offering your services for an aircraft like this that you have zero time in. Anyone can fudge their way through any piston twin. PT6's, Garrett's, Allison's and jet's are whole new animals and much study is needed to understand their operation. Everyone knows someone with more advanced training and experience who is looking for a job. Refer such qualified individuals for such tasks. The world will be a lot safer place and people's lawns will quit getting messed up.
100-1/2
Hello,
After seeing the pictures and reading the thread. A couple of things jump out at me. First, the lack of a post-crash fire is indication of fuel starvation. I'm not sure what the range is on the PC-12, but they had departed from an airport in Florida.
Another interesting fact, is the report of "severe" rime ice. Now, in my experience flying in the ice-laden clouds of the Appalachians, I've never seen that phenomena(severe rime?). However, icing reports are a very subjective observation and often reports are given by pilots that might not have seen what meets the AIM criteria. They just see a whole lot of that white stuff out there. I wasn't there obviously, but I find that PIREP questionable compared to others in the same time-frame.
It is tragic no matter what the cause, and I hope that a cause is found and a reoccurance can be avoided.
Regards,
ex-Navy Rotorhead
After seeing the pictures and reading the thread. A couple of things jump out at me. First, the lack of a post-crash fire is indication of fuel starvation. I'm not sure what the range is on the PC-12, but they had departed from an airport in Florida.
Another interesting fact, is the report of "severe" rime ice. Now, in my experience flying in the ice-laden clouds of the Appalachians, I've never seen that phenomena(severe rime?). However, icing reports are a very subjective observation and often reports are given by pilots that might not have seen what meets the AIM criteria. They just see a whole lot of that white stuff out there. I wasn't there obviously, but I find that PIREP questionable compared to others in the same time-frame.
It is tragic no matter what the cause, and I hope that a cause is found and a reoccurance can be avoided.
Regards,
ex-Navy Rotorhead
KeroseneSnorter
Robust Member
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2003
- Posts
- 1,530
PC12Cowboy
Berry Beery Bad
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2003
- Posts
- 561
Cutlass1287
Cup
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2004
- Posts
- 113
TimsKeeper
Registered Abuser
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2003
- Posts
- 290
Mr. Irrelevant
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 562
Someone who goes for training at Simuflite and has a commercial rating may be a skilled pilot but it makes him as much of a professional pilot as does one of us practicing holistic medicine on the side makes us a professional doctor. Sorry for the lousy comparison and my apologies for offending you if you were close to these people but someone who does something else for a living and has the money to buy a turbine airplane is not a professional pilot.
Mr. I.
Ditto Mr. I. and a bag of chips.
Tims..
Not sure what 'comments' you are referring to. Maybe you could elaborate on your wealth of knowledge and mentorship on what I have done so wrong here outside of expressed disappointment for the impact to all of us by this tragedy. As for Karma, No one is immune to this stuff. Just because I get a flu shot doesn't make it any smarter to hotrack with someone who has the flu. I do appreciate your goodwill expression toward my fate, however. Your attitude is the same type that has forgotten who/what brought the WTC Towers down. You cannot be passive and permissive to crap that gets people killed. Tough choices, sacrifices and steadfast determination to reduce risk are the ONLY solutions. I treat every hour in an airplane as if it were the first. No, this doesn't guarantee anything, but it does provide a much more acceptable margin for safety and successful outcome of the flight. I have signed, sealed nor delivered judgment on NO ONE in my comment on this misfortune, for I have NONE of the facts. My comments were in response to prior posts and expressed my disappointment in the affect to my operations. Grow some cahones and step up with a real argument or more creative inspiration. Otherwise, crawl back in your "fuzzy, feel good, everything is just dandy little world".
It is very interesting learning now that fresh out of training two dudes lead the charge for another divot in mother earth. Money well spent. I wonder if I reference this to my broker in support for discontinuation of Sim School each year? Certaintly, the bean counters are figuring this or maybe considerring a revamp of the currency program to include additional days of training? 'Obviously what ever they are doing is not enough?!?' And I thought it was only my policy at stake. No operationally I will have to take more time away to put a check mark in the box.
PC12 burns 500+/- pph. With average weights for a compliment of 6 and their bags, an available fuel payload of 2000#+/- gave them 4 hours of gas without reserves or 1000nm in "no-wind". I don't know where they came from or care to chart the trip, but, as speculation goes, sounds like a pretty tight margin with the northerly wind trend at the end of last week.
100-1/2
p.s. - I thought we couldn't say bitch here?
Tims..
Not sure what 'comments' you are referring to. Maybe you could elaborate on your wealth of knowledge and mentorship on what I have done so wrong here outside of expressed disappointment for the impact to all of us by this tragedy. As for Karma, No one is immune to this stuff. Just because I get a flu shot doesn't make it any smarter to hotrack with someone who has the flu. I do appreciate your goodwill expression toward my fate, however. Your attitude is the same type that has forgotten who/what brought the WTC Towers down. You cannot be passive and permissive to crap that gets people killed. Tough choices, sacrifices and steadfast determination to reduce risk are the ONLY solutions. I treat every hour in an airplane as if it were the first. No, this doesn't guarantee anything, but it does provide a much more acceptable margin for safety and successful outcome of the flight. I have signed, sealed nor delivered judgment on NO ONE in my comment on this misfortune, for I have NONE of the facts. My comments were in response to prior posts and expressed my disappointment in the affect to my operations. Grow some cahones and step up with a real argument or more creative inspiration. Otherwise, crawl back in your "fuzzy, feel good, everything is just dandy little world".
It is very interesting learning now that fresh out of training two dudes lead the charge for another divot in mother earth. Money well spent. I wonder if I reference this to my broker in support for discontinuation of Sim School each year? Certaintly, the bean counters are figuring this or maybe considerring a revamp of the currency program to include additional days of training? 'Obviously what ever they are doing is not enough?!?' And I thought it was only my policy at stake. No operationally I will have to take more time away to put a check mark in the box.
PC12 burns 500+/- pph. With average weights for a compliment of 6 and their bags, an available fuel payload of 2000#+/- gave them 4 hours of gas without reserves or 1000nm in "no-wind". I don't know where they came from or care to chart the trip, but, as speculation goes, sounds like a pretty tight margin with the northerly wind trend at the end of last week.
100-1/2
p.s. - I thought we couldn't say bitch here?
NotFurloughed
Wookin pa Nub
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2003
- Posts
- 73
Thoughts on Fuel...
MTOW of PC12 = 9921
Empty Wt of N770G = 6300
The Families on board the A/C were not big people so an ave. weight of 165-170 would be appropriate...
Add 200-300 lb of baggage and you could still carry almost 2300# of fuel.
For a flight from APF to UNV a pilot would be wise to file FL 250 or higher. Fuel consumption at these altitudes is less than 400 pph at max cruise. Therefore you could say conservatively 500# first hour and 400 # each hour after...and that's being CONSERVATIVE ( at FL 250 the POH says 380 pph at ISA).
Fuel starvation would be a surprising outcome given these numbers. However, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
I'm sure the NTSB will come up with something in a year or so...
MTOW of PC12 = 9921
Empty Wt of N770G = 6300
The Families on board the A/C were not big people so an ave. weight of 165-170 would be appropriate...
Add 200-300 lb of baggage and you could still carry almost 2300# of fuel.
For a flight from APF to UNV a pilot would be wise to file FL 250 or higher. Fuel consumption at these altitudes is less than 400 pph at max cruise. Therefore you could say conservatively 500# first hour and 400 # each hour after...and that's being CONSERVATIVE ( at FL 250 the POH says 380 pph at ISA).
Fuel starvation would be a surprising outcome given these numbers. However, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
I'm sure the NTSB will come up with something in a year or so...
PC12Cowboy
Berry Beery Bad
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2003
- Posts
- 561
Cutlass1287
Cup
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2004
- Posts
- 113
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
