PBS at CAL

[deceptibum]

Hello all! I was just curious from the CAL guys how trips are bid with the PBS system. Basically, do you get any type of "skeleton" type month trip examples to base your selections by, or is it all up in the air based on what you input into the computer. IE., can you say all I want is any layover trip over 12 hours or all Thursdays off ?? Any input and previous experiences are appreciated!! Thanks!

 

[Jonny Sacko]

It's very easy. You put in what your preferences are and you NEVER get any of them. It's that easy. If, on the other hand, you were able to program in, or wrote a thesis on C++ you can get the most senior pilots' trips by simply programing the machine to do so. It's pathetic.

In all honesty it is getting better, but really, you may get some of the days off you specifically ask for, but I wouldn't recommend "Carmen" PBS to your worst enemy.(cause they probably can program C++)

Each month it seems to throw out "bazaar" results. That's the best way I can explain it. You get no advance warning, you can't trade since the company has "minimums reserves required" way above actual reserves. This basically locks your schedule on you.

The programming bit I referenced to above: E.G.
I was watching a "trainer" show someone how to ask for their exact type of flying they wanted.

He literally typed into the computer
Avoid "this certain type of trip"
Award"this certain type of trip"

And he got results out of that. He said "Yup, see what it's done?"

This should be taken off all servers at any company. You can't train people in that much detail. It's a wide awake nightmare.

And Finally to bring home what a mess the "Carmen" system is when crews meet at outstations for the night, if they sit down at restaurant or bar, PBS will come up rather quickly, AND WE TALK FOLKLORE AND MYTHS FOR AN HOUR MINIMUM. "I heard this one guy got great trips by putting in "Award work after each bid group". "Oh ya, I heard of this one guy that put "Avoid work" and put his type of requests for the computer to build in the Denial mode". It's all crap. It's such a mess, and the company is rolling with laughter, cause they're running us into the ground working. We've had 3 pilot heart attacks in the last 3 months in the air,(this isn't about that, stop it), it's about them running us into the ground and taking bonus' from the servant's work. This system took all vacation bidding out. You work up to the vacation date, and start work the day after. No month off. It's the week off ONLY.

I hate to sound so dim, but it's the truth. See if anyone else puts on "happy shoes" and taps around me. I bet not. But if they do ask them if they can program in C++ or something like that!

 

[Patriot328]

I second it, it's a mess. Two problems seem to be running concurrently.. number one is staffing. We are short and it's really screwing with PBS.

Number two is this Carmen PBS system we have it garbage. Like Mr. Sacko referenced, you need a degree in computer programming (Fortran, C++, Ada, etc...) and that doesn't even guarantee you will get what you want because of "overall solution constraints"! Since PBS has to build a certain number of lines, it can pull a trip off a senior person's line (like say a 3day FCO) and stick it on a more junior line in order build all the lines required for the month. Our system is the exact opposite of "the first guy gets his choice (in trips), then the #2 gets his first choice of what's left, then #3, etc..." It is "we need to build EXACTLY this many lines and will do whatever is necessary to anyone's line to get it done. We have people that are in the top 5 seats of their BES not getting the trips they wanted and those trips are going to more junior people.

My personal take is I am about 70% on the 756 and I get basically what I was getting with the old system, but I have to work a hell of a lot harder trying to figure out the bid groups. I see absolutely no upside to it whatsoever. I know other airlines don't seem to have as much of a problem as we do, so I don't think the PBS "theory" is at fault, but our execution of it has been miserable.

The only way to fix this mess is to change vendors and up the staffing to a correct level or go back to paper bids (and up the staffing to a correct level anyway).

 

[Ex737Driver]

Welcome to Contract '02.

 

[NuGuy]

If it matters, NWA ALPA just sh!tcanned their's for the exact reason stated above.

The company is sh!tting eggrolls because they don't know where they're going to get the pilots for the summer. I heard someone mention a productivity hit somewhere north of %10.

Carmen is OK, Airware was better, but only if you have enough staffing and enough open time in the system to work correctly. Once the company forces open time below %2-3, the solutions fall to pieces, and the system becomes a "trip assignment system" rather than a bidding system. NWA tried to do it with ZERO open time, with predictable results (the only thing that this produced was a new term: "getting ZOTted."

Nu

 

[pkober]

I came into this PBS as a true believer. We had it at TWA and it worked very good. I am now a total PBS hater. This system sucks. What's worse is that the union doesn't care.

The big problems are that it is too complicated with too many options.

But the biggest problem is that seniority really doesn't matter. For example, this month I had two bid groups with 99 assignable trips. I was able to build a line from these trips in less than 5 minutes. It bypassed both of these groups and went into denial mode 4 and built me a line with crappy four day trips. I wanted two and three day trips. When I call the "union" I was told that it didn't give me any of those assignable trips because that would have affected the pilots junior to me and there ability to get a line. The computer says there will be 500 lines and if it built me a line from those 99 assignable to me it may have only been able to build 498 lines. So junior pilots got my good trips and I got there crappy trips. I'm at 60% and I should get what I can hold.

When I called ALPA I was told I need to learn the system better. So much for my dues money. Hopefully ALPA will get a set and stand up for our pilot group for a change.

Thank god for mil leave.

 

[Uniform Shop]

Here is a response I got from a PBS trainer after I complained about my March results. There were over 200 assignable trips that I bid for and I didn't get one. They went to people junior to me. It's total B.S.

You may have 1/2 of a dispute. Unfortunately, you are a victim of
splat. Your
seniority is at about 80% of Lineholders, and the unofficial word is that 63%
and junior were forced into 12 day off lines. All of the High pairings that
you wanted are too productive, so it was forced to use the DH pairings
that you
wanted as Neutral.

The exception is the LAS on the 4th of March. I think that you may
have a case
in that you could have had 2 of the MCO turns that you weighted high.
It could
have given them to you without much difference in total time or days off.

File a dispute at Flight ops / PBS / PBS Dispute Resolution Form

 

[AA717driver]

The problem is, a lot of the union guys are computer geeks. Computer geeks get wood over PBS.

At TWA, I made the argument that a computer is an appliance. It is not my hobby. If I have to spend 4 hours a day to get my can opener or dishwasher to work right, it's not worth it. Same thing with a computer.

If PBS requires a grad level degree to allow me to bid what I want each month (not counting software updates and changes in the proceedure for bidding), it has a negative impact on my QOL.

Even the best PBS system is a wash. A lousy PBS system is hellish. TC

 

[ACWild]

This is the first month that PBS somewhat gave me what I bid for, but I just hit the 53 percent mark. I go to the 777 next month, so I can kiss enjoying PBS goodbye.

 

[glasspilot1]

I came into this PBS as a true believer. We had it at TWA and it worked very good. I am now a total PBS hater. This system sucks. What's worse is that the union doesn't care...........

When I called ALPA I was told I need to learn the system better. So much for my dues money. Hopefully ALPA will get a set and stand up for our pilot group for a change.

PKOBER, As you say, it's not the PBS, rather, the implementation of it that makes it work. And some blame PBS when it's the work rules that are to blame. When companies want PBS they also want more efficient work rules at the same time. But they are separate things!

As far as ALPO, you know what us former TWAer's think of them.

 

[canyonblue]

I came into this PBS as a true believer. We had it at TWA and it worked very good.

I have flown with a few ex-TWA'ers at SWA and they would support PBS here. The overwhelming majority at SWA are against PBS due to the problems that pilots at other carriers are experiencing. Too bad, since I have never heard a bad word about the product TWA had. First word of PBS, Preferential. Whose preferences? :smash:

 

[AA717driver]

canyon--A large part of the positive experience with PBS at TWA was the fact that the union ran the whole show. They guaranteed the company that it would be done as effeciently and above board as possible and the company kept its hands off.

The company worked with the union to create effecient pairings (after the days of 5-day, 22 hour trips... ) and we had demand staffing which sucked all the excess open time out of the system.

It was good for the company and good for the pilot group. I had issues with it because it wouldn't let me make extra time via flythrough. There was no open time to pick up and the system eliminated picking up time by flying a trip that didn't conflict with the first trip of the next month.

I think PBS is problematic for pilot groups that don't have the complete cooperation of management. TWA was just in the right place at the right time for PBS to work well for most people. TC

 

[nimtz]

Here is a response I got from a PBS trainer after I complained about my March results. There were over 200 assignable trips that I bid for and I didn't get one. They went to people junior to me. It's total B.S.

And the good news is that the splat line will only move up in seniority when the schedule heats up this summer.

 

[pkober]

The funny thing is that PBS at TWA started in 1997. You would think that in 10 years there would have been a quantum leap in PBS. Instead it seems worse. PBS is the future, but it needs to be a system that works. Being told I can't get what I want because it might hurt some one junior to me is unacceptable.

True statement about what us TWA'ers think about ALPA. It make me wonder if APA would let this sh&t happen at AA. They seem to have much biggers ba77s than ALPA ever had.

 

[deceptibum]

Thanks everyone for the responses. I guess I'll have to check out a book on computer programming for this to work

 

[densoo]

More.

Saturday March 17, 2007

The March 15th deadline for delivery of the PBS Dynamic Bid Model, as set forth in the Implementation LOA, has now come and gone. Despite our best efforts to move the project forward, the deadline has been missed by the Company and Jeppesen. Discussions with Jeppesen on a further revised product delivery schedule are ongoing and we will update you as more concrete information becomes available.

Furthermore, it’s important that the pilot group realize that Continental recently made a unilateral decision to staff the PBS help line with crew schedulers as a cost saving measure. In the past, line pilots have served in this capacity. Your Union believes that these schedulers are insufficiently trained and will not be able to answer all pilot questions. They will likely read to you from vendor provided documents concerning some functions, and they can not bring the in-depth experience to the discussion in a way that a line pilot could. Additionally, they are not authorized to inform you what affect certain actions will have on your bid. We have asked that these phone lines be taped in order to properly document the discussion should errors occur with your bid.

Despite our protests, management has also elected to reduce the staffing of pilot trainers available on Prefbids.com. Beginning in April, there will be two shifts per day staffed with a single pilot trainer. Please be patient as they are working to meet your needs under a higher load of work. Management is more than willing to have Prefbids.com staffed by additional trainers if the expense is born by the Union. It is the MEC’s position that PBS training, like all other forms of training at Continental, is an expense that should be covered by the company. Your MEC officers believe that the sacrifice made by this pilot group to accept a PBS system as part of the current concessionary contract is payment enough. This pilot group will not sacrifice one more dollar for a bid system that has not met pilot expectations while the Company and Jeppesen continue to miss agreed upon system implementation deadlines.

The ALPA CAL MEC will continue to comply with its part of the contractual agreement in regards to moving PBS forward. Enabling the continuance of a problematic bid system and subsidizing it with ALPA dues money --- your dues money--- is entirely unacceptable and will not receive our support. We will inform you when and if any additional information concerning this issue becomes available. Please remember to continue flying safely and professionally.

CAL MEC

 

[Phrogs4ever]

Even better, how about the message we got after that one? It said something to the effect that "as a cost saving measure, crew shedulers will be used to man the PBS hotline!" That's exactly what I need to get out of DeniM-4, bidding tips from crew scheds. I think my three year old would be more helpful.

 

[densoo]

Even better, how about the message we got after that one? It said something to the effect that "as a cost saving measure, crew shedulers will be used to man the PBS hotline!" That's exactly what I need to get out of DeniM-4, bidding tips from crew scheds. I think my three year old would be more helpful.

The schedulers are understaffed now. I would have to think that management is going to give them this (significant) additional duty with no additional staffing.

[A lot like the way congress and president treated Walter Reed--lots more wounded, no more money. Please make do. Walter Reed was selected for base closure for crying out loud and as such, by law, was prohibited from major outlays of funds there. And the congressmen at that hearing had the nerve to blame the guys in uniform. I guess all large organizations do it this way, but the line workers, be it pilots, schedulers, soldiers, always suck it up.]

But I digress.

I can only imagine what's going to happen the first time there is a weather meltdown at the same time the PBS bid window is open; the scheduling line will be so busy they'll probably just turn off incoming calls entirely. The union will quickly send out a blastmail to all pilots stating "we oppose the current situation and we are in discussions with the company to remedy." Tic toc.

 

[whymeworry?]

PBS is one of the worst things to hit our career since deregulation or 9/11.

What's worse though? Flying with the kool-aid drinkers who, on the one hand whine about PBS, then arrive every leg 15-20 early.

I'm tired of listening to pilots bitch about PBS and do nothing about it. I am now to the point when I cut them off within 2 minutes and ask them what they've done to get involved, i.e., call the union, write letters to flight ops, fly to rule, etc. Most do nothing at all so I tell them to shut it when their whining starts. I will only discuss the subject with pilots who are legitimately trying to effecutate change.

One thing's for sure... we are severely understaffed due to PBS and all this system is ultimately going to do is get the pilots to battle hard during C'08 negotiations... well, I'm referring of course to those who don't drink the koolaid.

 

[JohnQ]

At DAL we are very happy with our PBS. We have had it for a year and a half and I can't think of five pilots I have talked to who would rather go back to the old Line of Time system (and it was a pretty good system, too).

So why the big discrepancy compared to others?

1. We went with NavTech's CLASS system, which we determined (correctly evidently) was vastly superior to any other vendor's.

2. CLASS absolutely honors seniority. It will put an extra junior guy on reserve rather than pull a senior guy's trip off his line so as to "make one more regular line."

3. CLASS has a Reasons Report, which tells you (in mostly plain English) just why you did or did not get what you hoped for. It saves 98% of all calls.

4. We have VERY STRONG union oversight, and this is agreed to by mgmt. We (the union) review every category's results and have to OK them before mgmt releases the results to the pilot group. We have frequently had to send the results back with our objections.

Add all the above together and you have a pretty happy pilot group at DAL. Is PBS perfect? No. In fact some months we have significant processing headaches. But it is still a pretty good system, and as we all get more comfortable with it, it should get even better.

Remember...strong union oversight is a must. Otherwise ANY PBS system can create chaos and headaches.