Pay for training programs?

[Goose Egg]

There are pilots who have integrity and high ethics who refuse to buy the BS. My first Riddle training manager left for Mesa. I don't recall the issue, but he left Mesa shortly thereafter because it failed to keep some kind of promise it made him. He later came back to Riddle and I believe he's still there. Good for him!

It is good to hear that some people will not stand for poor working conditions, and I would hope that I would be one of them. I guess my main concern is all the complaining that goes on, both on this forum and at my workplace. If it's so bad, then shut yer yap and ditch the place already!

(I know it really isn't that simple, but I haven't ever really been one to do a lot of complaining. Action is better. This whole flyin' thing was never about money anyway... But then again, I'm not about to do the PFT thing, partly because I don't have $30k to burn, and partly because I don't feel that I should pay a company for the priviledge of generating revenue for them.)

-Goose

 

[enigma]

MacJohn, Quality employers will not ask you to pay for their job.I,along time ago in a place far away, offered to buy my typeforacorporate job. That one statement almost cost me the job.TheCaptaindoing the interview stopped his questioning and took thetimetoexplain that he wouldn't hire a pilot who didn't considerthejobworthy of proper compensation. He explained that he wanted tohireapilot who took his job seriously, and he couldn't reconcile buyingajobwith taking the job seriously. He was nice to me. He realizedthatmyoffer was based upon my youthful zeal, and not based upon alackofrespect for my skills. Had I been interviewing with someoneelse,Iwould have been shown the door at that point. As Isaid,qualityemployers will not ask you to buy a job.

enigma

 

[mcjohn]

So I'm finally learning here and I really appreciate all the info.
Latest lesson:
Low quality employers may accept that you pay for your training or type rating. Once your're in you suffer through poor working conditions and pay.

 

[bobbysamd]

Browser aside

MacJohn, Quality employers will not ask you to pay for their job.I,along time ago in a place far away, offered to buy my typeforacorporate job. That one statement almost cost me the job.TheCaptaindoing the interview stopped his questioning and took thetimetoexplain that he wouldn't hire a pilot who didn't considerthejobworthy of proper compensation. He explained that he wanted tohireapilot who took his job seriously, and he couldn't reconcile buyingajobwith taking the job seriously. He was nice to me. He realizedthatmyoffer was based upon my youthful zeal, and not based upon alackofrespect for my skills. Had I been interviewing with someoneelse,Iwould have been shown the door at that point. As Isaid,qualityemployers will not ask you to buy a job.

enigma

Which browser on which OS do you use, Enigma? I ask because I see how your spaces run together. I've noticed the same thing for about a week on my Mac with Firefox.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-f-t

So I'm finally learning here and I really appreciate all the info.
Latest lesson:
Low quality employers may accept that you pay for your training or type rating. Once your're in you suffer through poor working conditions and pay.

It is not acceptance. It is policy. You set a bad precedent, for yourself, primarily, by your willingness to accept such terms of employment. In other words, again, do you really want to stoop so low as to grovel for a flying job by paying for it?? Only you can answer that question.

You very well can suffer down the road when your peers discover you are a P-F-Ter. You very will can suffer by being blackballed, and all that wonderful (paid-for) 121 experience won't be worth the $29,684 you forked up for it.

 

[Publishers]

bobby that is one example that Enigma gave but in todays market, when we look for a pilot we are looking for one who has the rating. As you may get 50 to 100 resumes with the ratings and current, why would you hire one to train???

If you have plenty of time but not the rating and you want to get one to be competitive--fine with me. I am seeking people ready to go.

 

[enigma]

bobby that is one example that Enigma gave butintodays market, when we look for a pilot we are looking for one whohasthe rating. As you may get 50 to 100 resumes with the ratingsandcurrent, why would you hire one to train???

If you have plenty of time but not the rating and you want to get onetobe competitive--fine with me. I am seeking people ready togo.

Pub, do you also require that the rated pilot also pay you a heftysumof money in exchange for your hiring decision? Do you care wherethepilot received the ratings and or experience?

enigma

 

[bobbysamd]

bobby that is one example that Enigma gave but in todays market, when we look for a pilot we are looking for one who has the rating. As you may get 50 to 100 resumes with the ratings and current, why would you hire one to train???

If you have plenty of time but not the rating and you want to get one to be competitive--fine with me. I am seeking people ready to go.

Of course. Management doesn't care where the experience came from, as long as the person exhibits qualifications. Your pilot workgroup will care, though.

Moreover, you are looking for a specifically-qualified person. It would be a stretch to expect you to look for someone with potential and train them. But, we are talking about airlines, etc., which must provide initial training pursuant to regulations. Requiring the new-hire to pay for that training is what P-F-T is all about. That is why it is an employment issue, only. That's why P-F-T is wrong - for pilots.

 

[qmaster3]

I’m confused on what PFT is exactly. So is SWA pilots PFTers? I just never want to be a PFT whore, but on the other hand we all PFT to an extent. At what point are you a "sell out"?

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T Confusion

I’m confused on what PFT is exactly. So is SWA pilots PFTers? I just never want to be a PFT whore, but on the other hand we all PFT to an extent. At what point are you a "sell out"?

SWA pilots are not P-F-Ters. To be a P-F-Ter, you must pay the company, or its training provider, for your initial training as a condition of employment. In other words, the company will say it will hire you but you have to pay it for the training it must provide you pursuant to regulation. Because Southwest does not require its new-hire pilots to pay for their initial training, it is not P-F-T.

The only time one becomes a P-F-Ter if one pays for company initial training as a condition of employment. That is the only time. Everyone has to obtain initial certificates, and everyone, in one form or another, has to pay to learn how to fly. Do not confuse going to a Part 141 school or paying a flight instructor to teach you to fly with P-F-T.

 

[UnAnswerd]

or else, the interview will not be conducted in good faith. The P-F-T outfit will have fulfilled its obligation, but it'll all have been window-dressing only with the interviewer having to intention of hiring the P-F-Ter.

That's probably true. Personally, I wouldn't feel any sense of pride in knowing that someone had a legal obligation to interview me. So I'm sitting here not because you thought I might be qualified for the job, but because you are simply forced to interview everyone??? Frankly, I'd feel like "just another nobody" in that situation.

Again, regardless of the job type, it's nice to know that someone saw your hard-earned experience and took an interest. There's no pride in sitting there, knowing they have to interview you, because you paid them for it!

 

[qmaster3]

Cleared that up.

Thanks Bob

 

[bobbysamd]

Personally, I wouldn't feel any sense of pride in knowing that someone had a legal obligation to interview me. So I'm sitting here not because you thought I might be qualified for the job, but because you are simply forced to interview everyone??? Frankly, I'd feel like "just another nobody" in that situation.

Again, regardless of the job type, it's nice to know that someone saw your hard-earned experience and took an interest. There's no pride in sitting there, knowing they have to interview you, because you paid them for it!

Someone else who is "getting it"!

 

[jettison]

hey bobby if your definition of pft programs is accurate then i guess when i went to gulfstream it wasnt considered pft. I went there to build time, just like everybody else who rents an airplane. when i signed up i was told that there was no hiring, no interview with GIA, no mention of interviewing with other regionals, no pay for a job....just a place to get quality training and 121 turbine time for cheap.
anyway not flame bait just a thought.

 

[bobbysamd]

Another "rose by any other name" . . . .

hey bobby if your definition of pft programs is accurate then i guess when i went to gulfstream it wasnt considered pft. I went there to build time, just like everybody else who rents an airplane. when i signed up i was told that there was no hiring, no interview with GIA, no mention of interviewing with other regionals, no pay for a job....just a place to get quality training and 121 turbine time for cheap.
anyway not flame bait just a thought.

You forget that but for P-F-T pursuant to 14 CFR 121 Gulfstream would still have to hire someone for that right seat. Moreover, Gulfstream paid you $8.00 per hour. When one performs duties and is paid for the duties performed, it is employment, i.e. a job. To get this job with Gulfstream, you had to pay it for your training - even if it was only a temporary job. Because Gulfstream paid you for your work and you paid Gulfstream for your training, it is P-F-T.

 

[:-)]

You forget that but for P-F-T pursuant to 14 CFR 121 Gulfstream would still have to hire someone for that right seat. Moreover, Gulfstream paid you $8.00 per hour. When one performs duties and is paid for the duties performed, it is employment, i.e. a job. To get this job with Gulfstream, you had to pay it for your training - even if it was only a temporary job. Because Gulfstream paid you for your work and you paid Gulfstream for your training, it is P-F-T.

Well said, Well said. Thank you for this logical argument.

Calvin

 

[jettison]

actually in my case it sounds like an internship!
internship-a short term job in which a student receives supervised practical training in a their field. Internships are often very closely related to the student's academic and career goals, and may serve as a precursor to professional employment. Some internships provide very close supervision by a mentor in an apprenticeship-like relationship. Some internships pay, some don't.

 

[:-)]

actually in my case it sounds like an internship!
internship-a short term job in which a student receives supervised practical training in a their field. Internships are often very closely related to the student's academic and career goals, and may serve as a precursor to professional employment. Some internships provide very close supervision by a mentor in an apprenticeship-like relationship. Some internships pay, some don't.

perhaps you didn't read this quote from Bobby.

You forget that but for P-F-T pursuant to 14 CFR 121 Gulfstream would still have to hire someone for that right seat. Moreover, Gulfstream paid you $8.00 per hour. When one performs duties and is paid for the duties performed, it is employment, i.e. a job. To get this job with Gulfstream, you had to pay it for your training - even if it was only a temporary job. Because Gulfstream paid you for your work and you paid Gulfstream for your training, it is P-F-T.

it ain't no freaking internship. You are paying for a seat that they would pay you for if you had enough sense to stand up and be a man.

Calvin

 

[mcjohn]

Jettison, don't get calvin or brett upset! No telling what they'll say next to attack you. The sense of anonimity on these forums brings out the worst in some people. Check this out:

Thanks for nothing, all of you boys who brought your own vasoline. Now those of us who never bent over, have to take pay cuts because of your zeal to fly a jet. Kiss my grits.
Calvin

If you "just want to fly, man", go rent a 172. The big boys want to earn a decent living at this. Just wanting to fly doesn't pay the mortgage.

Go buy yourself a Bonanza if you just love to fly. You can be good at something you love doing and you can even do it on your own schedule

In my opinion, fueling the PFT Industry shows lack of self respect and Integrity and you are probably made of the same clay as the guy that jumps the picket line when strike time rolls around and I don't need you on the property.

mcjohn, if you don't have a problem looking in a mirror and seeing a whore, by all means, write the check. But that's how the majority of the pilot population will view you.

I must admit some of that is pretty funny!
Anyway, I talked to my flight instructor yesterday and he said that the B1900 they fly at Gulfstream doesn't have auto pilot and that the $8 an hour they pay is for the F/O to be the captains auto pilot 7 hours a day while he does all the take off and landings. Is that true?
Can anyone give me some feed back on Mesa Pilot Development:
http://www.flightcareers.com/pace.htm

 

[bobbysamd]

"A rose by any other name . . . .

actually in my case it sounds like an internship!
internship-a short term job in which a student receives supervised practical training in a their field. Internships are often very closely related to the student's academic and career goals, and may serve as a precursor to professional employment. Some internships provide very close supervision by a mentor in an apprenticeship-like relationship. Some internships pay, some don't.

. . . . is still a rose."

Or, if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck . . . . .

 

[bobbysamd]

Don't pick up the PACE

Can anyone give me some feed back on Mesa Pilot Development:
http://www.flightcareers.com/pace.htm

I notice that you have the PACE page in your Mesa URL. PACE is a pay-for-interview/training program, similar in intent to P-F-T. In other words, another end-run shortcut plan. Don't look for shortcuts. They are shortcuts in the race to the bottom.

MAPD's Part 141 program is different. All it is is a Part 141 flight school, geared toward Mesa line procedures. An A.S. in Aviation Technology from San Juan College is included. It is not P-F-T because paying for it is not contigent on an offer of employment. No interviews are promised or guaranteed. No pilot jobs are promised or guaranteed. The only promises made is the school will train you for your ratings. Your ratings, earned at MAPD, will be recognized everywhere. If you toe the line, you can be interviewed for a Mesa Airlines FO job at 300 hours.

I don't care especially for Mesa as a company, but the Part 121 time you earn there is recognized everywhere.

Think about it. Don't even consider PACE.

 

[Superpilot92]

actually in my case it sounds like an internship!
internship-a short term job in which a student receives supervised practical training in a their field. Internships are often very closely related to the student's academic and career goals, and may serve as a precursor to professional employment. Some internships provide very close supervision by a mentor in an apprenticeship-like relationship. Some internships pay, some don't.

I DID AN INTERNSHIP BUT I DIDNT PAY 30000 BUCKS FOR IT, I EARNED IT. I EARNED IT BECAUSE I INTERVIEWED FOR IT JUST LIKE A JOB INTERVIEW. AFTER MY INTERNSHIP I INSTRUCTED WHERE I EARNED DOUBLE WHAT YOU PAID 30000 FOR. WHEN YOU EARN IT AND WORK FOR IT, IT MAKES IT ALL WORTH IT. PFT SUCKS. TAKE PRIDE FOR THE LICENSES YOU WORKED SO HARD TO EARN. DONT SELL OUT OR BETTER YET BUY OUT.

 

[UnAnswerd]

I DID AN INTERNSHIP BUT I DIDNT PAY 30000 BUCKS FOR IT, I EARNED IT. AFTER MY INTERNSHIP I INSTRUCTED WHERE I EARNED DOUBLE WHAT YOU PAID 30000 FOR. WHEN YOU EARN IT AND WORK FOR IT, IT MAKES IT ALL WORTH IT. PFT SUCKS. TAKE PRIDE FOR THE LICENSES YOU WORKED SO HARD TO EARN.

DUDE YOUR CAPS LOCK IS STUCK ON...

 

[mcjohn]

If you did the normal part 141 training would the final sector of training be like PACE anyway?

 

[Superpilot92]

DUDE YOUR CAPS LOCK IS STUCK ON...

I know. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[C601]

Just curious .....

Anyone out there or know a person who did the PFT route, applied for any type of a flying job and got blacklisted b/c of going the PFT route

 

[mcjohn]

Just curious .....

Anyone out there or know a person who did the PFT route, applied for any type of a flying job and got blacklisted b/c of going the PFT route

I just talked with my instructor yesterday about that issue and he didn't believe that going through a PFT program would ever result in being blacklisted (secret list that the pilot unions supposedly have?) Instead, hopping the picket line during a strike or some other action that weakens a union's efforts would place someone on the list permantly. I'm under the impression that the punishment for PFT comes in the interviews when particular companies give a PFTer a harder time than someone else.
Experts please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[UnAnswerd]

I just talked with my instructor yesterday about that issue and he didn't believe that going through a PFT program would ever result in being blacklisted (secret list that the pilot unions supposedly have?) Instead, hopping the picket line during a strike or some other action that weakens a union's efforts would place someone on the list permantly. I'm under the impression that the punishment for PFT comes in the interviews when particular companies give a PFTer a harder time than someone else.
Experts please correct me if I'm wrong.

McJohn, you've already been given a high volume of information regarding PFT. With each successive post, it seems as though you are just dying to hear SOMEONE justify participating in PFT programs, or at least state some benefits. How much negativity will it take, before you realize that participating in PFT is a personal degradation???

Newbie I may be, but you need not vast aviation knowledge to understand the pitfalls associated with PFT. As someone on this board once put it, if an employer cannot afford to train you, then they cannot afford a fleet of multi-million dollar aircraft. The reason various employers may ask you to PFT, is basically because they are cheap, and see a chance to exploit people like you, who will apparently do anything it takes to be in the cockpit. This might even be worth it if pilots earned the 6-figure salary everyone thinks they do. But if you have to pay your way into a job where you'll be earning 30K or less, why are you so eager to bend over for it?

 

[jettison]

hey give the dude a break!
pft or not, once you make it in the airlines nobody cares!!!
the only people who care are disgruntled flight instructors, and unemployed pilots!!!
give it a rest!!!!

 

[bobbysamd]

It's still a rose . . . .

pft or not, once you make it in the airlines nobody cares!!!

. . . . if you make it at all. That's a big "if" anymore, and especially so if your interview board is comprised of anti-P-F-Ters.

the only people who care are disgruntled flight instructors, and unemployed pilots!!! give it a rest!!!!

See my preceding comments . . . . interview board members who might blackball you because you're trying to cut in line and pull an end-run will certainly care.

It never ceases to amaze me how P-F-Ters rationalize their actions and then expect acceptance. "Internship." "Quality 'experience'". I love it!!