Pay for training programs?

[The_Russian]

Well...........

You guys can say what you want about GIA or whoever, but you need to know facts before posting rumor or opinion.

For those of you that don't know me I am an FO at GIA. I have also been a CFI for 4 years and have flown many types of aircraft, paid my dues, pumped fuel, la-la-la-la-la. I was an instructor for GIA as well when they had a flight school. (Just so you know where I am coming from)

First off, GIA or GAA people are not lowlife scumbags, nor are they scabs. They are a good group of friendly and knowledgable people. If you ever met one of us in person you would know how humble we really are. We know that life is not about how much money you have or how you use it. Most of us don't go around "bragging" about the F/O program and "how good we are because of it". We just want to fly airplanes for a living and enjoy our lives.

Some poeple who came here picked the flight school because it was a fair price and in their home town. Some people come here to do a fixed wing transition after the army with their GI bill. Some people are widebody FE's looking to get some 121 SIC stick time so their company will move them into the right seat at their airline. GIA has done a good job (in my opinion) of placing their students after they finish their time with us. The training is good and very high paced with no slack for those who fall behind. All the pilots do the landings and takeoffs on your leg. We do swap between PF and PNF every other leg.

After being an instructor in singles and flying twins and jets on the side, I still couldn't get an interview. Resume after resume was out and no calls back. All of my students who went through GIA and finished the program were enjoying their life flying jets long before me. I originally refused to participate in the FO program at GIA. I felt the same way a lot of you do now. After a long talk with my Dad and all my aviation friends (from CFI to PPL to corporate CP) I decided it was time to stop risking my life in crappy, falling-apart planes and get my career on the road. I did it and don't regret it one bit. Now I have a job I am happy with. I will be a CPT next month (FEB) and can't wait to fly with new and old FO's. I hope I get to teach these low time FO's how to do a better job so when they go to COEX or PCL or wherever, they are a more well rounded and better quality pilot.

Mcjohn, you don't have to listen to what I have to say or even believe me. Just please get your facts from the right sources before posting rumors. It would be a pleasure to have you at FLL with us.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T for bobbysamd(?)

Welcome back, Russian!

I could argue that P-F-T would have been an ideal career solution for me. I was 36 when I decided to change careers to aviation. I had already been flying for five years and had earned most of my ratings. I had my degree. At that time, in 1987, standard commuter (regional) mins were 1500-total-500-multi. I had about 800 total and, eventually, 50 multi. I sighed every time I read companies' requirements.

I instructed at ERAU and built my time, but, as Russian (whom I believe is younger than me by about 25 years) wrote, I, too, couldn't interest anyone in my abilities. I had interviews. Around 1991, P-F-T began to happen. One would think I would jump for it.

I refused, and here's why. As I have alluded to above, I (1) believed P-F-T to be a fraud and scam, something not handled in good faith, with clear conflicts of interests, and (2) embarassing and humiliating - why was it that other people were hired conventionally and I paid for my job - especially when I was qualified on paper for the free jobs out there. The humiliation and embarassment should be apparent. And, (3) it may be flying but it is still - only - a - job. One need not, or does not, buy - a - job. One should approach a potential employer with respect and with one's hat in hand, but one does not cowtow to an employer for a job on his/her belly, rear-end up.

The blackball possibilities and belief that I had earned a chance by virtue of my ratings and experience were also not lost on me.

There are those here who stick their tongues out at me and point out that if I had P-F-Td I would have achieved my commuter flying goal. Not necessarily; there was no guarantee of that. The only guarantee would have been my money and I would have parted ways. But the primary reason, bottom line, is I do not believe that any job is worth buying. The interest and desire stop there.

Someone here has opined that by paying I could have proven myself. I do not have to pay to prove myself to anyone. Neither do/should you. My abilities are apparent and so are yours. As far as I am concerned, no opportunity is worth buying. None. There is plenty of work I can do where I do not have to buy a job and/or pay to prove myself. If I, or you, have to go so far, or stoop so low, as to pay for the chance to prove ourselves, it is simply not worth it. That is how I feel about P-F-T. And, if it means not flying airplanes or being in aviation, so be it.

Think about it.

 

[C601]

Well Russian....

I well say this, last summer we had one of our jets flown back from a PPI, before leasing it we kept it in a Hangar very close to where your located @ FXE, 2 of your students came over to take a look inside, they seemed like nice guys took a peak inside, asked some general Qs etc.... Thanked me and left.

The way i look at PFT is like a double edged sword....It can work for you or againest you depending on what route you take ... and i also think been paid $8/hr for the job you do is a slap in the face, u might as well be in India. I see there cost for the program has gone up...do GS know the cost of living has gone up to.... i think not.

I see you have a Few Emb-120s at FLL over by your hangar. And whats with that Comair 120 taken apart.

 

[The_Russian]

Hi Bobby! Long time no see.

It's better to see some objective converstation rather then bashing. Iwas once guilty of that too. These guys just want somone to slap onanameless board. Did you hear they are starting a L-39 fractional outofFXE? I gotta get in as an instuctor in one of those bad boys!

C601,

Are you over at A-OK? I used to work for Banyan. Good people. Yesthecost of the program has gone up. It is getting a little unfair.Alsothe CPT program has started. it is like 65K. That is crazy. As itmayhypocritical of me and my coworkers, we are against it. Itgoescompletely against our CBA with the airline. And it is buying ajoboutright. Those guys are fools to think they are going to get aCPTslot over a permanent FO. The union won't allow it.

The $8 is only for the program guys. Permanent employees makecontratrates. My 2nd year pay it about 18 an hour plus per-diem. 33dollarswhen I go up to CPT next month.

Yeah we got the 120's. 5 now and taking delivery of 2 moreinFebruary-March. Then 7 more over the next year. We are veryexcitedabout it.

 

[The_Russian]

Just got Firefox. Stupid spacing.

 

[mcjohn]

I don't have a problem with GIA or MAPD. I know it's best to instruct but that shouldn't be the only way. Even if it is the best and most traditional way, the military never used that standard.
My problem with GIA as of now is the cost of the program mixed with the expensive location. I already have debt.
My opportuninty to receive excellent free training for larger aircraft and CRM expired when I turned 27. I didn't meet the dead line to have the government pay the bill. From what I hear these so called PFTs are not easy to pass through just as the military's set-up supposedly isn't easy. All these programs are to me are a way for civilians to recieve the same format of training they may have received in the military through private "for profit" businesses that are geared for civilian transport.

 

[350DRIVER]

I notice that you have the PACE page in your Mesa URL. PACE is a pay-for-interview/training program, similar in intent to P-F-T. In other words, another end-run shortcut plan. Don't look for shortcuts. They are shortcuts in the race to the bottom.

MAPD's Part 141 program is different. All it is is a Part 141 flight school, geared toward Mesa line procedures. An A.S. in Aviation Technology from San Juan College is included. It is not P-F-T because paying for it is not contigent on an offer of employment. No interviews are promised or guaranteed. No pilot jobs are promised or guaranteed. The only promises made is the school will train you for your ratings. Your ratings, earned at MAPD, will be recognized everywhere. If you toe the line, you can be interviewed for a Mesa Airlines FO job at 300 hours.

I don't care especially for Mesa as a company, but the Part 121 time you earn there is recognized everywhere.

Think about it. Don't even consider PACE.

We continue to beat this dead horse beyond recognition for what reason(s)?. The interview is not only promised it is indeed "guaranteed". I would urge you to go to the following page(s) so you can put these false notions to rest.

http://www.flightcareers.com/pace.htm

http://www.flightcareers.com/pace.htm

Guaranteed interview with Mesa Air Group for a 1st Officer position upon successful completion of this program.

The above is applicable to both "option A" and "option B". No and's if's or but's about it, you will be granted the interview upon successful completion of the program.

Yes, the interview is also "guaranteed" to those who complete the MAPD program as well.

Different programs, same end result to get to PHX and to get the interview, this is a given in the equation and has been since day 1.

Both programs are the same in that they train you the Mesa way with their standardization and procedures, only difference is that the PACE program is designed for those who already have atleast a Commercial License with instrument privileges. The main difference is one is taking the student from zero hours all the way through to the interview in 19 months with the other taking much less time concentrating on areas specific to the CRJ, Mesa ops and procedures.

3 5 0

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD guaranteed interview

[T]he interview is also "guaranteed" to those who complete the MAPD program as well.

Not necessarily. I instructed at MAPD in the 141 program. I acquired a student who had antagonized nearly every instructor he had before me, along with staff members. Not long after he became my student he did not keep up with the program and did not schedule with me, and, finally, made unreasonable demands on my time, argued with me in flight during his IFR cross-country, and busted his stage check. I brought all this to the attention of the Chief Flight Instructor, who was not surprised. He told me this individual would be permitted to finish the program but would not be sent to "the interview."

This individual did not adhere to the butcher paper deadline time-line. He believed he was owed because he suffered a service-connected foot injury (not bad enough to deny him a medical). In other words, as I wrote above, he did not toe the line.

Finally, don't forget that according to the MAPD hiring page that MAPD students must also demonstrate academic ability by "maintain[ing] grades of "B" or higher throughout their training . . . ."

 

[bobbysamd]

Just got Firefox. Stupid spacing.

Yep . . . <sigh>

 

[mcjohn]

I already have a B.S. degree. Does that make a difference a MAPD?

 

[EatSleepFly]

hey give the dude a break!
pft or not, once you make it in the airlines nobody cares!!!
the only people who care are disgruntled flight instructors, and unemployed pilots!!!
give it a rest!!!!

Spoken like one of Gulfstream's finest.

 

[minitour]

I already have a B.S. degree. Does that make a difference a MAPD?

It will if you go in to the PACE program.

Haven't looked at the website in a while, but I think you need theCSEL,250TT and a B.S. Degree in something, then they get you the CMELin aBaron and (I'm a little foggy on the details) I think some CRJ simtimebefore the interview.

-mini

*edit*
WRT The whole PFT Thing, I think bobby said it perfectly

. . . . if you make it at all. That's a big "if" anymore, andespecially so if your interview board is comprised of anti-P-F-Ters.

That would be my biggest concern for going that route. It's notworth it, plus I'm sure flight instructing is fun. There areother ways though, someone earlier pointed out banner towing, jumpers,etc.

I dunno...anyway, just be careful with the PFT thing...it could come back to bite you in the @$$

-mini

 

[350DRIVER]

Negative, you need a Minimum of an Associates Degree, 40 hours of "jet sim" time is provided.


dead horse beating contd:


I am pretty close friends with a senior check airman at Mesa (7/900)and have been for years so I can tell you after speaking with him on many occasions with regards to these programs and the students coming out (he also does interviews) that if you make it to the interview then you basically have the job. Very very seldom does the interview board turn away a Mesa grad coming out of the programs, this is a fact. If you make it to the interview then you will get the job, bottom line. You pretty much have to screw something up and work at it rather hard to get turned away after being trained the Mesa way from day 1. I know many who have went through the programs at MAPD and they all got hired and many have moved on to to different carriers present day. It is easy to assume things but this isn't nearly as big of ''gamble" as some seem to think it may be.


Rare cases such as your example do justify the student not getting hired does happen. I am a tad surprised that Castle, Crystal & company even allowed a "problem" to continue to stay in the program and even make it to the interview process, usually this will not happen since the policy has been to wash them out and not allow them to continue to disrupt the flow of the program. This is the same as the famous "deadlines" that the students/instructors "color in" on the flow chart board to track expected and required progress, you fall too far behind, blow it off, lack initiative, get too many letters of reprimand in your file, etc, then you probably will not make it to the end either. These folks who run the program have no patience for people who intentionally try to disrupt a "perfectly tweaked machine." They put the official letters of reprimand in the students file for a reason, you accumulate enough of them then adios, cya, bye bye.. They certainly do this for a reason, to weed those out who are not complying to what is in place and expected. If my memory serves me correct it was John Green (ex-MAPD COO) who is now at UPS who started this practice which continues to this day.


I have heard very similar stories as you have stated but the difference is that those who were the "cause" of problems were sent packing and home before they could even think about completing the program or interview. Keep your nose clean, study hard, keep a low profile, do what is expected, and work hard then you will get the job, bottom line... Screw up, cause problems, etc, then you most likely won't even make it to the interview.


The interview IS most certainly guaranteed for all those who successfully complete these programs (you are correct about the grades that must be maintained), this has been the biggest selling point from day 1 which still continues to this day. This is probably the single most important reason that low time pilots decide to go this route, you won't have many other options upon completion of this programif you don't make it through.

A friend of mine who completed the program in 97 spent a year as a 1900 first officer, upgraded to captain, spent another year there, got hired on as a B757 FO at ATA where he is at present day (probably won't be there much longer) and on his days off he is one of the "Jet Sim" instructors at MAPD and he has also verified the above. His entire MAPDclass didn't even interview in PHX, they went right to ground school since Mesa was extremely short on first officers at the time and the interview board knew that they would be successful since they made it this far and they knew the "product" that they were getting. This has happened to more than a few classes..

Keep in mind that you also must interview before you even get accepted into these programs, this is done for a reason. The program may be a money maker for Mesa Airlines but in no way, shape, or form is it set up to take a student's money and leave them hanging after month 19.

No program or airline will "guarantee" a job, this holds true pretty much in any industry that you look into. YOU (the student) must put the work in to be successful, you won't be "spoon fed" in Farmington and one should not expect that. If you expect that then you will be writing your own ticket out of Farmington. I am sure current and former students will also agree with this.

If you want a fast track to the regionals then these are progroms that many consider and go through. If you are not worried about time then by all means flight instruct, fly freight, cargo, etc. It comes down to personal preferences, nothing more and nothing less.

I already have a B.S. degree. Does that make a difference a MAPD?

No, you will simply get another degree (two year) on top of the one that you currently have should you go through the MAPD 19 month program as many have done. I do not think this reqt. has been waived since quite a few of the classes are Mesa "specific" on top of the general education required course work.

 

[mcjohn]

I have a 2 year degree as well. Two 2 year degrees for me?
Any other options?

 

[bobbysamd]

Transferable credits

I already have a B.S. degree. Does that make a difference a MAPD?

Go read the web page. It says you might be able to transfer credits for the general ed requirements, etc.

In fact, most MAPD students I encountered had degrees or had completed some college-level work. I understand the school actually recommends going there with some college because carrying a full academic schedule and flying is a big load.