Pay for training programs?

[mcjohn]

Could someone fill me in on what they may know about these kind of programs.
The one I'm most interested in is the first: http://www.gulfstreamacademy.com/firstofficer/firstofficer.html
http://www.silverexpress.com/first_officer.htm
Do I really have to pay dues by becoming a CFI and instructing to build time?
I have SEL/Instrument w/230 hours and do not want to instruct at this point in my life. I would like to move toward these low minimum hire requirement regionals such as Continental Express or Express Jet but don't want to instruct.
Would I be selling my soul to the devil and lose respect in the aviation community if I transistioned straight to a decent regional job out of a place like Gulfstream.
Would I be taking a paying job away from a CFI who payed their proper dues though instruction and be cursed with bad karma forever? And what do the airlines think?

 

[Ollie]

Mcjohn, the problem with those programs is that they do not offer the real-world chemtrail experience that most operators require. You should first learn things such as standard and non-standard spraying patterns, redisue dispersion systems, and protocol for government reloading sites.

 

[EatSleepFly]

I would like to move toward these low minimum hirerequirement regionals such as Continental Express or Express Jet but don't want to instruct.

Hehehe...

 

[mcjohn]

I actually would like to instruct but don't want to take the time. I would have to relocate to instruct fulltime and would just rather make it a relocate to build turbine time full time?

 

[slowto250]

Could someone fill me in on what they may know about these kind of programs.
The one I'm most interested in is the first: http://www.gulfstreamacademy.com/firstofficer/firstofficer.html
http://www.silverexpress.com/first_officer.htm
Do I really have to pay dues by becoming a CFI and instructing to build time?
I have SEL/Instrument w/230 hours and do not want to instruct at this point in my life. I would like to move toward these low minimum hire requirement regionals such as Continental Express or Express Jet but don't want to instruct.
Would I be selling my soul to the devil and lose respect in the aviation community if I transistioned straight to a decent regional job out of a place like Gulfstream.
Would I be taking a paying job away from a CFI who payed their proper dues though instruction and be cursed with bad karma forever? And what do the airlines think?

McJohn,

Just make sure you keep track of what you spend, and can document it. It is a little known fact that those who spend the most during PFT, receive the best job offers !!

 

[Crossky]

Could someone fill me in on what they may know about these kind of programs.
Do I really have to pay dues by becoming a CFI and instructing to build time?
I have SEL/Instrument w/230 hours and do not want to instruct at this point in my life. I would like to move toward these low minimum hire requirement regionals such as Continental Express or Express Jet but don't want to instruct.
Would I be selling my soul to the devil and lose respect in the aviation community if I transistioned straight to a decent regional job out of a place like Gulfstream.
Would I be taking a paying job away from a CFI who payed their proper dues though instruction and be cursed with bad karma forever? And what do the airlines think?

NO.
YES/NO.
NO.
MAYBE.
The airlines will like you because you'll have a history of bending over, but they will think you are a loser with your "thumb and your finger in the shape of an L on your forehead". Oh, and you have no self respect because after your commercial ME you paid for your so called training and experience instead of earning real experience the honorable and traditional way. If you PFT or do something like it you'll have to get the secret capital "L" tatoo on your chest and have a permanent botox procedure done on your face to show the anxiety and shame you'll carry the rest of your career, and you'll especially feel it when you fly with a new crew member who has a traditional training background and at job interviews.

Advice: Don't PFT past your Comm ME. To get experience without instructing: ferry airplanes, fly pipeline patrol, fly sightseers, fly VFR and then IFR cargo, fly parachuters, fly in ALASKA, fly in the Caribbean, fly charter, fly for a private owner, there are many more.

THINK! VISUALIZE YOUR PFT FUTUTRE. AND THEN JUST SAY NO.

 

[Goose Egg]

I actually would like to instruct but don't want to take the time. I would have to relocate to instruct fulltime and would just rather make it a relocate to build turbine time full time?

I love instructing. Sure, I'm not hoping to do it the rest of my life, but it has proven to be quite beneficial. For one thing, you really need to know your stuff in order to teach it to someone else. And beside that, it is one of the coolest things ever to see a student finally "get it." Those are some of my best experiences flying so far.

Oh yeah, and I get to build time and get a little bit of $$ to go flying too. Life is good.

-Goose

 

[FN FAL]

Could someone fill me in on what they may know about these kind of programs.
The one I'm most interested in is the first: http://www.gulfstreamacademy.com/firstofficer/firstofficer.html
http://www.silverexpress.com/first_officer.htm
Do I really have to pay dues by becoming a CFI and instructing to build time?
I have SEL/Instrument w/230 hours and do not want to instruct at this point in my life. I would like to move toward these low minimum hire requirement regionals such as Continental Express or Express Jet but don't want to instruct.
Would I be selling my soul to the devil and lose respect in the aviation community if I transistioned straight to a decent regional job out of a place like Gulfstream.
Would I be taking a paying job away from a CFI who payed their proper dues though instruction and be cursed with bad karma forever? And what do the airlines think?

If my boss would allow me to do it mcjohn, I would work out a PFT type deal with you. What I had in mind, was that I would get my employer to sell you a 135 training course and checkride in our Caravan, then I would "contract" you to do my frieght run. I keep the benefits and the vacation and give you one fourth of my wages for a one year period. You get to log 550 hours of single turboprop 135 PIC.

Oooops...other than my boss not letting me do that, I just realized a major technicality...you don't have 135 IFR mins and you don't meet the 2,500 hour insurance requirements. Drats...another PFT scheme foiled!

 

[Ralgha]

If my boss would allow me to do it mcjohn, I would workout a PFT type deal with you. What I had in mind, was that I would getmy employer to sell you a 135 training course and checkride in ourCaravan, then I would "contract" you to do my frieght run. I keep thebenefits and the vacation and give you one fourth of my wages for a oneyear period. You get to log 550 hours of single turboprop 135 PIC.

Oooops...other than my boss not letting me do that, I just realized amajor technicality...you don't have 135 IFR mins and you don't meet the2,500 hour insurance requirements. Drats...another PFT schemefoiled!

You'd give him 1/4 of your pay? You should have him pay you anextra 25% of your pay for giving him a golden opprotunity like that!

 

[jettison]

Mcjohn that is a tough question to ask on this board. As you probably have noticed, there is a lot of animosity towards pay for training programs. The fact of the matter is that most all of us non military pilots payed for our training. When I went to gulfstream I didnt know that so many people hated PFT programs. If I had known that... I might have chosen not to go. Everybody back home was spending about 10 grand renting a small multi to get their time. I figured I might as well spend a little more and get some good experience. After getting paid for the actual flight time I think I only paid about 14 thousand. I am so glad I did! Now I am flying a jet and have been at a regional for 2 years, while my friends and fellow pilots at my flight school back home are still working on building time. Sometimes when I read pilots posts who strongly oppose gulfstream and other pft programs, I wonder if I would do anything different....but then I think...why wouldnt I do whatever it takes to make myself more marketable than the next guy. If you think about it what other industry out there looks down upon those who try to get the best training available? My responsibility in my life is to my family. When it really comes down to it, people at the majors dont know about gulfstream or even care! I have lots of friends at the majors now and when I explain how I recieved my training most all of them say " I wish I would have done that!"

 

[Atccfi]

You PFT, you suck. You are bringing down the whole industry for the rest of us. And what you don't realize is that it will come back to bite you in the a$$. So you PFT and get an $8/hr right seat job.Congratulations. I make $16/hr as a cfi and have a hard time paying my rent, good luck with a loan on top. There is nothing more that I want other than find a job not teaching stalls, but in the mean time I will not sell my self short and damage my fellow pilots' careers, because it will hurt me in the long run. Bottom line, you pft everyone loses except for "the man". Look at the big picture. If we would hold our selves to a higher standard we would have a much better QOL, as opposed to always complaining about it. Why do we fight each other as opposed to having the man fight for us? What most of us don't realize is that it starts from the very bottom. Just a couple of thoughts that ran through my mind tonight.

 

[EagleRJ]

[QUOTE]· Program is FAA approved for 2nd in command.[/QUOTE]

I noticed this little gem in the ad for the second PFT scam.

135 Caravan F/O = Passenger
Time the FAA allows you go log = zilch

Unless, of course, the FAA has approved an Ops Specs requiring a two-pilot crew, which is unlikely since this operator is based in the Carribean, where the FAA doesn't even have jurisdiction!

What they're probably talking about is that their company allows passengers/jumpseaters. I wonder if they allow the passenger to fly the airplane? That would be a violation, too.

FN FAL- are you allowed to carry passengers? Are you aware of any Caravan operators in the States that operate with a two-pilot crew?

 

[FN FAL]

[QUOTE]·Program is FAA approved for 2nd in command.[/QUOTE]

I noticed this little gem in the ad for the second PFT scam.

135 Caravan F/O = Passenger
Time the FAA allows you go log = zilch

Unless, of course, the FAA has approved an Ops Specs requiring a two-pilot crew, which is unlikely since this operator is based in the Carribean, where the FAA doesn't even have jurisdiction!

What they're probably talking about is that their company allows passengers/jumpseaters. I wonder if they allow the passenger to fly the airplane? That would be a violation, too.

FN FAL- are you allowed to carry passengers? Are you aware of any Caravan operators in the States that operate with a two-pilot crew?

Who is talking two pilot crews? I was thinking of contracting him to do my run, so I can spend more time at home sitting on my fat ass and getting paid for it...as if I don't log enough of that already!

I was just ribbing the PFT guy...not only would my employer not let me do this, but in reality, I would never do such a thing if I could. We don't do PFT at my place and we don't do F0 programs...

As a post script, at one time, we were going to do CAT II operations with our Caravans and some of the airplanes have that equipment yet. Had that program gone through, we would have had SIC's in the Caravan. Could you imagine the usefullness of logging SIC 135 single engine turbine?

 

[mattpilot]

Here's my secret plan... but shhhh!!! Don't tell anyone else.



I'll go to GAI (whatever), do the program say about 8 times, and build up 2000 hours turboprop time. I'll be in debt with about $200000 - not including the 50G's i had to pay to get through "peilet skool". Once done, i'll declare bankruptcy and try to get a job at a regional .... MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHhahahahahaha ha ha....ha.... wait... can i even get that much in loans in the first place?

:/

 

[FN FAL]

Here's my secret plan... but shhhh!!! Don't tell anyone else.



I'll go to GAI (whatever), do the program say about 8 times, and build up 2000 hours turboprop time. I'll be in debt with about $200000 - not including the 50G's i had to pay to get through "peilet skool". Once done, i'll declare bankruptcy and try to get a job at a regional .... MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHhahahahahaha ha ha....ha.... wait... can i even get that much in loans in the first place?

:/

That's what I did...just apply for three thousand credit cards...you can do it!

 

[mattpilot]

Hey look! Its sponge bob gay pants!!

Nice avatar

 

[FN FAL]

Hey look! Its sponge bob gay pants!!

Nice avatar

hahaha...

 

[Ill Mitch]

Are you aware of any Caravan operators in the States that operate with a two-pilot crew?

Doesn't Pacific Wings in HI run Caravans with two dudes up front?

 

[coolyokeluke]

Would I be selling my soul to the devil and lose respect in the aviation community if I transistioned straight to a decent regional job out of a place like Gulfstream.
Would I be taking a paying job away from a CFI who payed their proper dues though instruction and be cursed with bad karma forever? And what do the airlines think?

Yes. Not everybody knows about PFT training at the airlines. But many do. These boards have a good sample of pilots in the industry, and at many (most?) companies senior pilots have a voice in the hiring process. How do you like how the ratio of postitive vs. negative replies is coming? True you probably could pay to have a job and move on to a regional with a lot of debt for $20k a year. But you'd be a scab. And as far as moving, if you want to advance in this industry with any kind of speed besides glacial/geologic, you might want to make peace with it. I know there are exceptions, but I think most pilots end up moving to move their careers forward at least a time or two. Or you could commute and eat up your precious days off and end up divorced like my friend.

 

[FlyChicaga]

I never knew a FICO score could get negative, but then I met a Gulfstream Academy pilot.

 

[:-)]

Hey mcjohn, serious question. Why would you want to pay for a job: in an industry that has never made a profit, in an industry where there has always been an oversupply of qualified labor, in an industry where the vast majority of skilled labor (pilots) works at or near the poverty level, in an industry that has taken massive job reductions in the recent past, in an industry where labor management relations are historically bad, in an industry where a significant percentage of workers are forced to retire early because of medical reasons, in an industry where your lively hood depends upon the ability to pass a checkride every six months, etc, etc, etc??????????????????????????????????

Now, before anyone labels me a negative person, my questions are not intended to paint the business in a bad light, only to question why someone would want to PAY to enter the industry. At least those of us who worked our way up, didn't do it at the expense of massive loans. Loans that accrue interest every month.

Here's the only real argument against buying a job. When you buy a job, all you really do is send a message to the entire world of airline managers that pilots will do anything to be in the cockpit. The next thing you know, Delta will be asking pilots for a 40% paycut. Oh wait, they already have.

Thanks for nothing, all of you boys who brought your own vasoline. Now those of us who never bent over, have to take pay cuts because of your zeal to fly a jet. Kiss my grits.

Calvin

 

[mcjohn]

I never knew a FICO score could get negative, but then I met a Gulfstream Academy pilot.

What does this mean? Only 230 hours, I'm still retarded!

 

[mcjohn]

Hey mcjohn, serious question. Why would you want to pay for a job: in an industry that has never made a profit, in an industry where there has always been an oversupply of qualified labor, in an industry where the vast majority of skilled labor (pilots) works at or near the poverty level, in an industry that has taken massive job reductions in the recent past, in an industry where labor management relations are historically bad, in an industry where a significant percentage of workers are forced to retire early because of medical reasons, in an industry where your lively hood depends upon the ability to pass a checkride every six months, etc, etc, etc??????????????????????????????????

Because I love to fly more than anything else and l love pressing buttons, dealing with the controls, and being in command of a mechanical bird.
Even if I somehow end up sick of my job, I would still know that I specialize in doing something that I'm good at.

Here's the only real argument against buying a job. When you buy a job, all you really do is send a message to the entire world of airline managers that pilots will do anything to be in the cockpit. The next thing you know, Delta will be asking pilots for a 40% paycut. Oh wait, they already have.

Thanks for nothing, all of you boys who brought your own vasoline. Now those of us who never bent over, have to take pay cuts because of your zeal to fly a jet. Kiss my grits.

Calvin

O.K. Something is starting to become apparent. Some pilots have emotional issues with the state of the industry they're trapped in and need something to target. Forget about terrorism, Sept. 11, and fuel costs! It's those darn PFT pilots screwing everything up. Come on, anyone can see through this. And another note to take is that the exact same thing that's screwing up the airlines, is also screwing the flight schools and the guys are coming out with 50+ grand in debt. Therefore, places like Gulfstream become way more attractive. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[bobbysamd]

The Scarlet Letters

Would I be taking a paying job away from a CFI who payed their proper dues though instruction and be cursed with bad karma forever? And what do the airlines think?

The answer to your first two questions is "yes."

Airline H.R. could care less where you earned your time. Its job is only to bring in enough "qualified" applicants to interview. Those who will care are the pilots whom you will sit before during the interview board. Chances are, they will have worked their way up the hard way, by instructing, flying freight in dilapidated equipment, dropping skydivers, etc. They will resent that you found your way before them by writing a check.

Another point is the fraud and con aspect of P-F-T. The conflict of interest between paid-for trainee and trainor is obvious. Your instructors will have a vested interest in making money for their company - and less interest in seeing you, the trainee/customer, succeed. Then, try to get any money back from the P-F-T operator.

Finally, you have to decide if you want to embarass and humiliate yourself by paying for a job. That's what P-F-T is all about. Chances are, with airlines such as ExpressJets hiring at 700 total-100 or less multi, if you instructed for a year you could build that time. You could be hired honorably, with no P-F-T scarlet letter(s) - and for free.

Think about it.

 

[bobbysamd]

Because I love to fly more than anything else and l love pressing buttons, dealing with the controls, and being in command of a mechanical bird.
Even if I somehow end up sick of my job, I would still know that I specialize in doing something that I'm good at.

If you really love to fly as much as you say, then you should love instructing. Oh, I forgot to say that you don't get to do a whole lot of flying . . . . but, if you love flying so much . . . . .

You are the type that P-F-T companies love. Be smart about your decision, for reasons that I wrote above and for the others written above mine, such as:

When you buy a job, all you really do is send a message to the entire world of airline managers that pilots will do anything to be in the cockpit. The next thing you know, Delta will be asking pilots for a 40% paycut. Oh wait, they already have

(emphasis added)

 

[Goose Egg]

May I play devil's advocate for a moment?

If we would hold our selves to a higher standard we would have a much better QOL, as opposed to always complaining about it. Why do we fight each other as opposed to having the man fight for us? What most of us don't realize is that it starts from the very bottom.

Now, I am definitely not defending PFT in any way, shape, or form, but I have to wonder how the above quoted is supposed to occur. I hear constantly that we need to "stick together" and "hold ourselves to a higher standard" but I have yet to see any one individual who is willing to do that. Regional FOs complain until they are blue in the face, yet no one refuses an employment offer or resigns. And why not?

And if any given person is unwilling to make that stand for themselves, then what business do they have expecting everyone else to do it?

It's pretty easy to complain, but taking action is another matter entirely.

-Goose

 

[shamrock]

Regional FOs complain until they are blue in the face, yet no one refuses an employment offer or resigns.

And if any given person is unwilling to make that stand for themselves, then what business do they have expecting everyone else to do it?

It's pretty easy to complain, but taking action is another matter entirely.

-Goose

I'm sure there are a great deal of people who have turned down job offers or resigned over this. You don't hear about it because they are not doing the job and therefore have no reason to complain about it.

And why should someone have to resign anyway? Many try to change from within, to improve their jobs. They are "taking action", as you suggest. And it is much harder keeping what you have, let alone making any improvements, when you have so many who are willing to do your job for less or even pay for the privilege.

 

[Goose Egg]

And it is much harder keeping what you have, let alone making any improvements, when you have so many who are willing to do your job for less or even pay for the privilege.

My point exactly.


-Goose

 

[UnAnswerd]

One thing amusing about some of these PFT advertisements, is how they state "guaranteed interview" upon completion. Guaranteed interview??? Wow, that is truly inspirational. Let's drop 30K for an interview that might consist of "sorry, we haven't any openings".

 

[bobbysamd]

P-f-t

If we would hold our selves to a higher standard we would have a much better QOL, as opposed to always complaining about it. Why do we fight each other as opposed to having the man fight for us? What most of us don't realize is that it starts from the very bottom.

Now, I am definitely not defending PFT in any way, shape, or form, but I have to wonder how the above quoted is supposed to occur. I hear constantly that we need to "stick together" and "hold ourselves to a higher standard" but I have yet to see any one individual who is willing to do that . . . .

. . . . because there will always be pilots at the ready to fill their seats. Just as there will be pilots who will P-F-T - despite the strongest admonitions to the contrary.

There are pilots who have integrity and high ethics who refuse to buy the BS. My first Riddle training manager left for Mesa. I don't recall the issue, but he left Mesa shortly thereafter because it failed to keep some kind of promise it made him. He later came back to Riddle and I believe he's still there. Good for him!

Finally,

One thing amusing about some of these PFT advertisements, is how they state "guaranteed interview" upon completion. Guaranteed interview??? Wow, that is truly inspirational. Let's drop 30K for an interview that might consist of "sorry, we haven't any openings".

. . . . . or else, the interview will not be conducted in good faith. The P-F-T outfit will have fulfilled its obligation, but it will have been only window-dressing with the interviewer having no intention of hiring the P-F-Ter.