Pay Comparison Misnomer

[canyonblue]

I started this flame-bait post because a lot of the SWA kool-aid drinkers on this forum are getting pretty annoying.

Easy, quit logging on.

 

[scoreboard]

Lets see, where do I begin...

deleted

ygbsm

 

[canyonblue]

Good for you, that's why I wrote "to each his own." Right now neither one of those statements is false. It has nothing to do with a bigger aircraft either.

Hey, I agree with you there. For me it has to do with the place I work and the environment I am in. Myself, and many other SWA pilots love coming to work, and that is a hard thing to find in any profession, and that is worth more than any payrate in the world. Now it could go south, but I feel the pay would before the environment would.

 

[RedBelly]

Slick,

Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm glad you left too. You have to do what makes you happy. I wish more guys had your conviction.

 

[canyonblue]

SWA pay is not the highest. Even after massive pay-cuts, AA and CAL pilots make more.

You also need to do some other comparisons before you sell people on your "Higher Pay" theory.

According to my investigating we have:

American
777 Captain with 12 years - $196 per hour 46 planes at that payrate

Continental
777 Captain with 12 years - $186 per hour 18 planes at that payrate

Southwest
737 Captain with 12 years - $190 per hour 446 planes at that payrate

Given the current seniority list we have over 1600 Captains at Southwest at that pay scale. I believe the number enjoying that "High Pay" at CAL would be @108 and at AA @ 276. I am not sure how many on the current list at each carrier will have the opportunity to reach that mark either due to slowdowns in upgrade, growth, etc..

 

[wndshr]

FedEx
Wide body Captain 12 year $201 ,15 year $206
A Plan - 2.00%
B Plan - 6%
401k - yes, though not much of a match

We have a bunch of 10 year wide body Captains and 4 to 5 year 727 Captains. How many 10 year 777 Captains do you thing CAL or AA have? I'd bet Zero, add to that most of our fleet are wide bodies.

Where is the comparison?

Airline job: 100K a year working 75 hours a month ( the min I possible can)
Outside business: 320K a year with UNLIMITED raises in the future.

Bottom Line: Fly for fun, own a business to pay the bills

 

[D'Angelo]

Originally Posted by Big Slick
.

My favorite is when SWA pilots boast about being the most productive. Most productive = lowest quality of life. Bragging about the fact that you work harder than anyone else is bizarre at best. Scary at worst.

SWA is lowering the standards for the entire industry.

Yea being lazy is really something to brag about. A big part of the reason why airlines are in trouble is not only because of payrates. The biggest problem is paying people to hardly work giving them 6 weeks of vacation a year. Sorry but paying someone to do nothing is bad for buisness. You wanna be lazy go into management throw your feet up on your big desk and don your golden chute

 

[CaptainMark]

Yea being lazy is really something to brag about. A big part of the reason why airlines are in trouble is not only because of payrates. The biggest problem is paying people to hardly work giving them 6 weeks of vacation a year. Sorry but paying someone to do nothing is bad for buisness. You wanna be lazy go into management throw your feet up on your big desk and don your golden chute

6 weeks..is that all? i take 6 weeks off every 4 vacation periods...let's see....that's 24 vacation weeks....now we're talking!!!!

 

[(o) (o)]

By the way, even if the pay was lower (which its not) I’d still prefer to fly a 777 to Nagoya than a 737 to Midland. Lots of my buddies ended up at SWA after 9/11 because there was nothing else. My buddies who have been there for 4+ years don’t enjoy their job. You can’t even take a break to use the restroom or buy lunch – gotta turn the jet in 20 minutes!

Have you ever flown a 777 to Nagoya? How do you know it's going to be better?

 

[K-Mart]

I quit SWA in 2001. I was on this forum in 2000 talking about how awesome it was to be hired by SWA. Once I got there, however, I realized that it wasn't that great. I honestly couldn't imagine busting my butt in a 737 for 28 more years.

How long did you fly the line at SWA and AA?? What made you realize SWA wasn't where you wanted to be when you hit the line?

I would say about 90% of my class-mates had interviewed with United and been turned down.

I don't know, that is probably a good thing. Not to sure about UAL's hiring practice though.

Here is my point - All of the SWA zealots on this forum haven't been around very long.

How long were you an airline pilot??

They are so pumped full of the SWA koolaid that they honestly think everyone else in the world envies them.[/QUOTE]
You quit SWA and went to AA. What are you doing on Active Duty now? How much have you deployed since coming back to AD??

Have a great AF day!:laugh:

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

OK, before anyone else accuses me lf being jealous of the folks at SWA, let me set the record straight.

I quit SWA in 2001. I was on this forum in 2000 talking about how awesome it was to be hired by SWA. Once I got there, however, I realized that it wasn't that great. I honestly couldn't imagine busting my butt in a 737 for 28 more years.

I had two other friends who quit also. I went to American. One of my friends got a full time reserve job flying T-38s and the other got a full time guard slot flying F-16s.

I am from Dallas and didn't like having to commute. Also, I didn't like the idea of doing the Texas-Two-Step for the rest of my life out of Love Field. I got hired by American and, of course, got furloughed.

I didn't want to be this specific earlier because I am now identifying myself to a bunch of folks who know my story.

Before 9/11 no one really wanted to work at SWA. When I quit, I had several of my co-workers ask me to write them letters of recommendation to AA. Most of the folks in my class at SWA were there because no one else would hire them. I would say about 90% of my class-mates had interviewed with United and been turned down.

Here is my point - All of the SWA zealots on this forum haven't been around very long. They are so pumped full of the SWA koolaid that they honestly think everyone else in the world envies them. They are very full of themselves. I'm tired of hearing their bologna.

New Flash - Working at SWA ain't all that great. It's amazing that we have all lowered our standards so much in just five years.

Good points. I know and have heard about many folks who left SWA for AA in '99, '00 and '01. Many live in Texas.

Oddly, I know a couple of guys who were furloughed by AA in the early '90s and came to SWA to stay. They did not accept recall back to AA.

Times are constantly changing. I guess your perspective depends on your preferred domicile, background, age, and hiring cycle. One's vision of the future and what opportunity it holds is very personal. I know I didn't like entering the marketplace after 9/11 and it affected my perspective. I had to cross off AA, UAL, DAL and USAir off my list of possible employers. The same employers my classmates promised to help me get on at.

I welcome your effort to keep the SWA koolaid folks honest. I wish you well.

 

[Purpledog]

I have a few friends hired pre 9-11 that are thrilled at SWA, because they got turned down at UAL, DAL, & AA. Pre 9-11 SWA was that State College you applied to as a back-up. I know a few who have been hired since 9-11 and they are thrilled just to have a job (that is another plague and thread). Chill out kool-aid drinkers. Before you flame me, I didn't see myself flying boxes around in the middle of the night either, they called first. My kool aid glass got knocked over in the middle of the night eating my box-nasty meal.

 

[Big Slick]

I deleted all of my personal information from the previous posts. A lot of folks know my story and I don't want to piss off people in the real world.

Like I said earlier, I just got tired of seeing everyone present the case SWA is the best in every way without question.

OK, got that out of my system. No more flame-baiting for me.

For everyone who loves their job at Southwest, I'm happy for you.

 

[Andy]

I am from Dallas and didn't like having to commute. Also, I didn't like the idea of doing the Texas-Two-Step for the rest of my life out of Love Field. I got hired by American and, of course, got furloughed.

Before 9/11 no one really wanted to work at SWA. When I quit, I had several of my co-workers ask me to write them letters of recommendation to AA. Most of the folks in my class at SWA were there because no one else would hire them. I would say about 90% of my class-mates had interviewed with United and been turned down.

Here is my point - All of the SWA zealots on this forum haven't been around very long. They are so pumped full of the SWA koolaid that they honestly think everyone else in the world envies them. They are very full of themselves. I'm tired of hearing their bologna.

BigSlick, interesting story. We should all keep in mind that this is not a one size fits all world. By the time that you finish your military career, you will go directly back to AMR; they'll have recalled through your seniority. I'm finishing my active duty time in the reserves doing a desk job. I'll be recalled by United before the end of this year, but will take mil leave for as long as possible.

It's important to choose the job that will make you happy, not the one that pays the most. There are plenty of Southwest pilots who absolutely love it there, but it's not for everyone.
On active duty and in my Guard unit, there were several guys (pre 911) who wanted Southwest #1 and that's where they went. Whenever I've spoken to them, they've been very happy with their decision.

My personal feeling on flying is that I want to make my time at work as productive as possible; I lost the love of flying (where I'd fly for free) quite a while ago. My idea of how to do that is to fly large equipment on long legs ... I want to doze for dollars as a 777/400 bunkie. You don't get paid unless the plane's moving, so why not fly something that's going to keep moving for more than 10 hours at a clip? Some will say that I don't know if I'll enjoy that kind of flying. Two counterpoints: 1) If I don't like it, I can always bid onto smaller guage domestic equipment. 2) After flying the RC-135 on multiple double air refueling missions where my crew rest position (augmented on 16+ hr flights with a third pilot) was any open spot on the floor in the back with my inflatable mattress to shield me from the freezing floor, I think that I can rough it in one of those first class crew rest sleepers.

I have to laugh at the koolaid drinkers on this forum who think that their airline is the best/invincible/insert a superalative here. Anyone who fails to acknowledge that their employer is not perfect is, IMO, a koolaid drinker. You are correct that there are about a half a dozen Southwest (relatively newbies) who still have the company keychain, bumper sticker and personalized 'IFLYSWA' license plates. That will eventually wear off. Southwest isn't for everyone, just as United and American are not for everyone.

Right now, Southwest is the place to be because it is the most financially stable. It probably always will be the most financially stable; they have the strongest balance sheet in the industry. Their management is very smart about not overleveraging the balance sheet and they have a very talented management team (their talent is also very deep; it's not just the starting lineup). There are many great things about Southwest that other airlines don't have. But it isn't for everyone. Southwest isn't for me; I'd probably be miserable there. For other pilots, Southwest is the perfect fit. That's great; it isn't a one size fits all world.

Hmm. I guess that this post will reinforce to the Southwest koolaid drinkers that I'm nothing but a Southwest hater. Talk about living in a clueless bizarro world.

 

[Gorilla]

I am an AA guy and have flown to Nagoya on the 777, except it was Narita. It is nice to be able to pursue the style of flying that you enjoy. Some guys like the widebody, some like domestic, but having the option is what matters to me.

If I saw two trips that looked like this:

DFW - NRT 13:40
NRT - DFW 12:10
Total 25:50

3 Day, 6 legs/day domestic
17:45

I'd personally go to Tokyo! Whatever toots your horn. I'm doing Caribbean these days. Cozumel, Belize, San Jose CR, Mo Bay, etc. It's far more laid back than domestic garbage with congested airports in the winter.

 

[Jetjockey]

To each his own. That's what makes this country great.

 

[canyonblue737]

Guys the SWA job is the easiest flying I have ever seen. Next month the average line in MDW has 17.3 days off. Duty days average 8-10 hours and average lines per day is about 4 thanks to ever increasing long hauls. The average overnight is 16-18 hours, sometimes longer. Pay for what we do (fly domestic longhaul) is beyond amazing including FOs.

Work myself to death? You gotta be kidding me... I have been flying 3 on 4 off for MONTHS (never a 4 day trip) and the paychecks are sweet and the trips simple.

 

[banger]

I knew someone from SWA would post something about flying more per month. How about this logic - I could hold three jobs, work more hours a month, and make more money. Oh yeah, I could give blood everyday and make some extra money too! Only one problem with this theory - your quality of life is crap.

I love your mentality. One of your selling points is that SWA will let you fly more. What ever happened to the concept of being paid well and still having time off? Money is only part of the equation.

My favorite is when SWA pilots boast about being the most productive. Most productive = lowest quality of life. Bragging about the fact that you work harder than anyone else is bizarre at best. Scary at worst.

Disagree here, Yes if you generalize maybe you can use this arguement. But I would love the idea of "flexing" to more hours when I wanted more cash like say around or after the holidays. Or how about busting your hump in the fall to take off more time in the summer. Thats what productivity can do for you, it can increase your quality of life if you can use it correctly.

 

[cactuspilot]

I don't usually post replies but I had to ask a question when I read this. What about flying until you time out is attractive? I would prefer to have a pay cap so everyone can advance instead of one person flying the trips of 1 1/2 people. Then more people upgrade and you can make the bigger money without having to work extra until you "time out". I like to fly but I enjoy my family and time off more.

SWA is my 4th airline. Q of L is better here than anywhere..trust me
You can stay at home and sit on your ass all month or fly alot and collect $15k a month. I've done both as an FO @ SWA. It's your choice.

 

[K-Mart]

I deleted all of my personal information from the previous posts. A lot of folks know my story and I don't want to piss off people in the real world.

Like I said earlier, I just got tired of seeing everyone present the case SWA is the best in every way without question.

OK, got that out of my system. No more flame-baiting for me.

For everyone who loves their job at Southwest, I'm happy for you.

You're not pissing anybody off. Just entertaining them though! Face it, you f up!! You move on and so does life! Be glad you were able to get on AD.