Pathetic Spain

[ATL2CDG]

Snoopy58:

Quoting the Wall Street Journal, eh? What a neutral and non-political publication from which to draw information!

All sarcasm aside, the WSJ is perhaps the worst periodical from which to draw evidence to support your argument. And, in fact, the exerpt from which you quote is a letter to the editor, NOT a piece of journalistic work. As such, being an 'opinion piece,' the information/banter contained within is likely skewed more than what is considered exceptable.

If you're going to attempt to prove your point regarding the results of the recent Spanish elections, I would ask that you quote an array of voting Spaniards outlining why they voted the way they did. Any one can make up a clever stimulus behind any action. However, proving such an assumption is often a more difficult task.

TysV

 

[Snoopy58]

That was a signed editorial in the WSJ, not a letter to the editor. If the facts in it didn't stand up to the scrutiny of their editorial board, they wouldn't print it. The fact that the WSJ isn't a liberal rag doesn't make them any less accurate in their facts.

How about this: rather than sitting back & challenging me to quote "quote an array of voting Spaniards outlining why they voted the way they did" why don't you quote something, anything, besides your arrogant self, no back up your assertions about the polls? If you think "an array of voting Spaniards" is necessary to provide an informed viewpoint, you could do that. Or I'd also accept a major news organization with respect on both sides of the Atlantic and across the political spectrum. (not "agreement" across the political spectrum, but respect... no moveon.org tirades, please)

Or just keep on pontificating how the Spanish voting the way the terrorists wanted them to vote is a good thing, rather than an awful absence of spine.

But please answer my question: do you think terrorists will be MORE likely, or LESS likely to commit atrocities like the one in Madrid, after seeing the outcome there?

 

[ATL2CDG]

From the BBC:

'Making the most of it'
Carlos Mayoral, 25, PP election observer

Most people are voting as they have always voted. But more seem to be voting than in previous years.

It is a nice day and people are making the most of it.

I think those who have doubts will leave a blank vote rather than compromise their principles.

Change of heart
Laura Hernandez, 22, student

I was abroad when the attacks happened.

I wasn't going to vote, but this has changed my mind.

If people don't vote against the government, it will get worse.

The attacks were terrible, it made me feel worse than you could imagine. It has been a very important moment in Spain's history.

Too young to vote
Paula Hernandez, 17, student

The government is now letting out some information before the elections, it's incredible. People have to know the truth.

I'm only 17 and can't vote this time which makes me very angry.

I was very near Atocha at the time, I didn't get a train, but it was close.

'Little information'
Javier Martinez, 41, railway worker

I was not swayed by what happened and voted for the party I voted for before.

At the start, the government did not give us enough information about what was happening but now it has got better. I think it could change some people's vote.

The war in Iraq has already done that and people changed their minds.

'Disgrace'
Alda Gonzalez, 18, student

You have to vote, it is everyone's right.

PP is in government and they decided to go to war in Iraq and now we have suffered the consequences.

PSOE is the only option.

PP will lose votes because of the last few days. It has been a disgrace. From the start they knew more or less who was behind it.

Against the war
Margarita Jimenez, 39, civil servant

I already knew how I was going to vote. I was against the war, that was very bad as the Spanish people weren't consulted.

Now there have been consequences.

I voted Socialist. If the government lose votes it is because of how they have handled this.

'Not influenced'
Agustin Lopez Gonzalez, 57, health worker

This has been a very difficult time for us.

Two cousins of mine were killed in the attacks. It is hard to think about the future, it is still very raw.

My vote is secret, but I have voted as I always do. I haven't been influenced by what has happened. I think the government has acted how it should.

"It's the first time I voted. I feel very happy because the government had to change... because of the Iraq war," a Spanish law student told the BBC.

"I have two friends who have never voted in their lives and they're going to vote in this one," said 41-year-old businessman Carlos Bermudez.

The Spanish government backed the US-led invasion of Iraq last year despite polls showing 90% opposition to it from the Spanish public.

See, a whole broad range of reasons why the conservatives lost the majority. Some people decided to vote because of the attacks. Some people changed their votes because of the attacks. Some people were steadfast in the convictions. The Spanish people have a right to choose not to participate in war. Had the government listened to the population in the first place and not entered Iraq, the conservative still might be in power.

In any case, each nation has a sovereign right to elect those individuals whose views reflect the will of their people. It's called freedom. What are you going to say in November if the American people elect Kerry? Are you going to make a generalized statement and say 'Pathetic America'? I would hope not. This is a government of the people and if the people want change, they have a right to demand it.

It's called freedom. Bush and his cronies may not like countries choosing their own path... I'm sure he'll invade them and change things soon enough.

To answer you question, I think terrorists will strike whereever they see opportunity. Do you think that bin Laden threw a big party when the Socialist won? I don't. I think he went, 'Oh, well, they elected somoene. They're still Christian, so we're going to kill them anyway.' I think you're giving bin Laden and the THOUSANDS of terrorist cells too much credit. This is blind hatred. They're going to kill who ever they can, whenever they can. They don't care about political parties.

TysV

 

[100LL... Again!]

UpnDownGuy

Call Bush evil if you must, but he is far from a moron.

I love how he continues to let the likes of you be duped into underestimating him.

Typical liberal name caller.

 

[Snoopy58]

Wow, the BBC makes my point for me.

1 guy says (optimistically) that it won't change things, but concedes that more people are voting than before -- more than probably would have but for the bombings.

1 girl voted who wouldn't have, and sounds like she voted socialist.

1 guy voted like he would have, but admits others might be swayed by the bombing.

Another voter says the socialists gained from the bombing.

2 others were not influenced, and there are reports of 3 who had never before voted.

Somehow I don't see the bombings bringing closet PP believers out to vote nearly so much as mobilizing the apathetic socialists and undecideds who are suddenly voting against whoever's in power.

But at any rate. Annecdotal quotes like this do NOT substitute for polling large numbers of people, and the polls (as I quoted before) indicated that the terrorists changed the outcome of the election. The people in the BBC report tend to support that conclusion: of the 9 people referred to, 5 refer to increased turnout or are themselves "wouldn't have or never had" voters; 1 says socialists gained, another looks like one of those gains, and two simply say "no change."

Thanks for posting further proof that the terrorists got what they wanted out of the brave Spanish voters.

'Making the most of it'
Carlos Mayoral, 25, PP election observer

Most people are voting as they have always voted. But more seem to be voting than in previous years.
Well duh, he's Aznar's party, and an election observer. OF COURSE he puts the best face on things.

It is a nice day and people are making the most of it.
That's called "whistling in the dark."

I think those who have doubts will leave a blank vote rather than compromise their principles.
He would hope so, but it's hardly realistic.

Change of heart
Laura Hernandez, 22, student
I wasn't going to vote, but this has changed my mind.

If people don't vote against the government, it will get worse.

'Little information'
Javier Martinez, 41, railway worker

I was not swayed by what happened and voted for the party I voted for before.

At the start, the government did not give us enough information about what was happening but now it has got better. I think it could change some people's vote.

The war in Iraq has already done that and people changed their minds.


'Disgrace'
Alda Gonzalez, 18, student

PP will lose votes because of the last few days.


Against the war
Margarita Jimenez, 39, civil servant

I already knew how I was going to vote.

'Not influenced'
Agustin Lopez Gonzalez, 57, health worker

My vote is secret, but I have voted as I always do.

"It's the first time I voted. I feel very happy because the government had to change... because of the Iraq war," a Spanish law student told the BBC.
But WOULD he have voted absent the bombing??? Never had before!

"I have two friends who have never voted in their lives and they're going to vote in this one," said 41-year-old businessman Carlos Bermudez.

Might the bombing have influenced that???

edit: just realized I left out the "too young to vote" respondant. Neither voted nor had much insight into those who did, as far as I could find.