Part 91, avoiding becoming a 135 flight

[dolphinjazz]

The FAA will determine the true nature of the flight. If you were going to a destination and someone asked to come along, then there shouldn't be a problem if the FAA were to investigate. Trouble comes when you fly someone under the guise of instruction to a destination you hadn't intended to fly to. Chances are you will not be caught, unless someone calls the FAA (ie. local 135 operator losing business to your 'instruction', post incident/accident investigation or ramp check).

CYA, always be able to legally defend your actions if Murphy's law comes your way.

Yeah, it's the ramp check or post incident investigation that's always a concern. Am not wanting to sneak under the radar on this one (or any other time)... am wanting to be legit.

At this point I'm not too hopeful that she will want to take lessons, though it is a remote possibilty... I will discuss it with her... and I would document each and every little step in that direction. (Get her a logbook, log some ground instruction, get her Flight Training Magazine, etc., etc.)

Am not sure about "intro lesson" and having covered the "four basics" (logged) first as being a requirement... would sure help, I imagine... and I may be able to guide things in that direction. That speaks to my question, "exactly what is the test for proving up a flight was/is instructional?" Naturally, if we go this route, I will have a month or two to guide the process in this direction and will make sure that I've built a solid and honest case before the flight is made.

I will not make the flight with her if I think it's a sham... not worth risking the trouble. After talking with her some more, I will have a better feel for whether this thing could go instructional. If not, well... the advice received:

"Don't ask the obvious. You rent the plane, you go knock yourself out on this flight and that's the end of the story."

Well that advice speaks to my other question, "exactly what is the test for proving up that a flight's purpose was shared? (not the expenses, but the *purpose* was shared)" You see, my reading of the regs and my limited understanding of the common law and FAA position here is that it boils down to intent. Do we both share the desire, purpose, and intent to take this flight? And, if so, then did the pilot (as per 61.113) receive more compensation than is allowed?

This above paragaph is tricky because I would have to prove intent and shared purpose... AND I would have to prove the compensation issue. That might be pretty hard. (given the landscaping will be brought up at some point)

I don't care how much of a friend she will become... or if she even becomes a bit of a "girlfriend"... I can see in the event of an incident or accident, an attorney taking the position of there being a quid pro quo: she compensated me with landscaping... it was a commercial operation.

So, anyway guys... thanks for the feedback. I will most likely work with this young lady on the idea of honest and actual flight lessons... and, if she is game, I will document the heck out of it, do the intro flight first... and that should be enough.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Wow you are making things complicated. Don't you ever rent airplanes on your own? Don't you bring people with you sometimes?

If it is a trip that you want to take then this is what you do. Forget about the whole flight instruction angle. You want to do it right? Forget about taking this pleasure trip under the pretense that it is instructional!

Now if she were a student already who was due for a dual cross country trip there is no reason you couldn't mix a little pleasure in with that business. But this is clearly not the case.

If you haven't figured this out by now then God help you.

 

[Daveman]

Bro - The long-short of it is: You pay for the trip. Have a nice time *together* as you say, plant your root and go home. If you did a good job 'Whalla' now you have new roots growing at your house. Case Closed!!!

200nmtrip $200.00??
Dinner/Drinks $150.00
Free Landscaping Priceless

All Legal, except if you're married!!!

 

[7B2]

It almost seems to me you want to get in trouble.

Do the friggin' flight and forget about it.

Unless you are ""THE ONE" that has never busted a FAR!!

 

[SharkBait]

Why is it the grey area always works to ones advantage?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Why is it the grey area always works to ones advantage?

When it comes to the line between part 91 and Part 135, the grey area always works to the pilot's advantage when she's thinking about finding a way to do it. Unfortunately, it almost always works to the FAA's advantage when they come after you.

 

[prpjt]

(Quote) "exactly what is the test for proving up that a flight's purpose was shared?"

Would you take this flight to see your common friends and do fun things, even if she was not doing landscaping for you?

 

[rcbullock]

1. Have her rent the plane from the FBO.
2. Have her hire you for pilot services.

She has operational control, you are her employee as a professional pilot. Just tell the FBO the deal, some have a problem with it being 134 1/2 , others understand the distinction. It isn't 135 because the FBO isn't providing the pilot, only renting the plane for her operational control. She doesn't have to hire you, she can pick any pilot meeting the FBO's criteria.

To me, the 135 test is : Did the plane and pilot come from the same place, and who has operational control over it?

 

[Lead Sled]

1. Have her rent the plane from the FBO.
2. Have her hire you for pilot services.

She has operational control, you are her employee as a professional pilot. Just tell the FBO the deal, some have a problem with it being 134 1/2 , others understand the distinction. It isn't 135 because the FBO isn't providing the pilot, only renting the plane for her operational control. She doesn't have to hire you, she can pick any pilot meeting the FBO's criteria.

To me, the 135 test is : Did the plane and pilot come from the same place, and who has operational control over it?

Be very careful. It really isn't as simple as you put it. We're dealing with a comparable situation as we speak. The solution actually involves written leases with copies sent to the FAA, FAA notification of individual flights and insurance company notification to insure that coverages won't be compromised.

Lead Sled

 

[Sctt@NJA]

1. Have her rent the plane from the FBO.
2. Have her hire you for pilot services.

NO NO NO. It doesn't work that way. She is not a pilot. Non-pilots can not rent airplanes. Now if she OWNED an airplane that would be different.