Part 91, avoiding becoming a 135 flight

[midlifeflyer]

Why is it the grey area always works to ones advantage?

When it comes to the line between part 91 and Part 135, the grey area always works to the pilot's advantage when she's thinking about finding a way to do it. Unfortunately, it almost always works to the FAA's advantage when they come after you.

 

[prpjt]

(Quote) "exactly what is the test for proving up that a flight's purpose was shared?"

Would you take this flight to see your common friends and do fun things, even if she was not doing landscaping for you?

 

[rcbullock]

1. Have her rent the plane from the FBO.
2. Have her hire you for pilot services.

She has operational control, you are her employee as a professional pilot. Just tell the FBO the deal, some have a problem with it being 134 1/2 , others understand the distinction. It isn't 135 because the FBO isn't providing the pilot, only renting the plane for her operational control. She doesn't have to hire you, she can pick any pilot meeting the FBO's criteria.

To me, the 135 test is : Did the plane and pilot come from the same place, and who has operational control over it?

 

[Lead Sled]

1. Have her rent the plane from the FBO.
2. Have her hire you for pilot services.

She has operational control, you are her employee as a professional pilot. Just tell the FBO the deal, some have a problem with it being 134 1/2 , others understand the distinction. It isn't 135 because the FBO isn't providing the pilot, only renting the plane for her operational control. She doesn't have to hire you, she can pick any pilot meeting the FBO's criteria.

To me, the 135 test is : Did the plane and pilot come from the same place, and who has operational control over it?

Be very careful. It really isn't as simple as you put it. We're dealing with a comparable situation as we speak. The solution actually involves written leases with copies sent to the FAA, FAA notification of individual flights and insurance company notification to insure that coverages won't be compromised.

Lead Sled

 

[Sctt@NJA]

1. Have her rent the plane from the FBO.
2. Have her hire you for pilot services.

NO NO NO. It doesn't work that way. She is not a pilot. Non-pilots can not rent airplanes. Now if she OWNED an airplane that would be different.

 

[igneousy2]

Hi,

As near as I can tell my original question here is just another tired repeat of the age old problem of the CFI transporting a passenger under the guise of instruction. I just need to know where those lines are so that I don't cross them....

My sense is that in order to take any flights like this, I will need to absolutely insure that they are instructional... no fudging... no possibility for misunderstanding that....

Garrett

Guise: the appearance of someone or something, especially when intended to deceive. The men who arrived in the guise of drug dealers were actually undercover police officers.

Are you for real? Are you a politician? You want to have "no fuding...no possibility for misunderstanding..." yet, you are concerned with the "age old problem" of transporting a passenger under the GUISE of instruction.

1st -- if you are truly trying to be the straight arrow you are claiming to be then check the dictionary definition of GUISE and that should answer your question.

2nd -- the only pilots with the "age old problem" of transporting a passenger under the GUISE of instruction are pencil whipping, starving CFI's trying to get their total time up for their big airline jobs.

The rest of us just pay for the flight. If she happens to give you a good deal on the landscaping then so be it, but I wouldn't talk to her about it before hand or she will sing like a canary (albiet innoccently) if confronted.

Later

 

[midlifeflyer]

1. Have her rent the plane from the FBO.

Can you show us the FBO that will rent an airplane to a non-pilot? I don't mean allow her to =pay= for it, but, rather give her authority and control over it.

 

[Uncle Sparky]

Wow you are making things complicated. Don't you ever rent airplanes on your own? Don't you bring people with you sometimes?

If it is a trip that you want to take then this is what you do. Forget about the whole flight instruction angle. You want to do it right? Forget about taking this pleasure trip under the pretense that it is instructional!

Now if she were a student already who was due for a dual cross country trip there is no reason you couldn't mix a little pleasure in with that business. But this is clearly not the case.

If you haven't figured this out by now then God help you.

I'm going with this guy. You're using calculus to add two and two! Complete the trip as any 91 pleasure flight that you would normally do.
Your rationale is like me saying; When I fly a 135 trip and the passenger comes up and says "what's this button do?", when I've explained it's purpose, I am now mixing 135 and 61! ?....... Just make sure you leave the hood and the instrument blockers at home!

 

[rcbullock]

Can you show us the FBO that will rent an airplane to a non-pilot? I don't mean allow her to =pay= for it, but, rather give her authority and control over it.

I submit that if you tell the FBO the deal, that she will be paying all the bills, making the schedules, etc. and you are approved by the FBO to fly the plane, this is legal and ethical. Now some FBO's will some won't. I have called around on it. As for presenting proof of such, feel free to do some of your own legwork.

It is no different than someone leasing a plane from someone else and hiring you as the pilot. Do you have to be a pilot to lease an aircraft?

 

[JAFI]

I think the board should have a section for "Beating a dead horse" discussions. You know the areas that come up time and time again, with or with out resolution.



In this case it is not what you or I think if the flight is 135 or "flight Instruction" it is what the Admin. Law Judge thinks. From what I have seen, the judges take a dim view of "flight instruction" or "cross country flight instruction" to a "student" when the flight is really a charter.



If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, or quacks like a duck, it is a duck. The same goes for a charter.



Also, Be careful of taking "Legal" advice from any one other than a GOOD Legal Professional who knows (in this case) Aviation Law. It can be very lonely standing in front of that judge with the old "it was flight instruction, really it was" defense.



This is not legal advice in any way. Just an observation. Good luck....

JAFI

Just Another Fuc#$ing Inspector

 

[Lead Sled]

I submit that if you tell the FBO the deal, that she will be paying all the bills, making the schedules, etc. and you are approved by the FBO to fly the plane, this is legal and ethical. Now some FBO's will some won't. I have called around on it. As for presenting proof of such, feel free to do some of your own legwork.

It is no different than someone leasing a plane from someone else and hiring you as the pilot. Do you have to be a pilot to lease an aircraft?

Awwww, here's the rub. Did you know that the FAA actually wants to have you submit a written copy of the lease for their files? Did you realize that the FAA wants prior notification of all flights conducted under your lease so that they, at their discretion, can conduct a ramp inspection and verify that the flight is really is on the "up and up"? Did you realize that under certain conditions, the insurance company can deny payment of claim in the event that there is an accident or incident? One of aviation's urban legands is that flight instructors can conduct charter flights if they can figure out a way to call the flight instructional. Absolutely not true.

Jafi hit the nail square on. The problem is, 90% of the time, when these arrangements are made and carried out, the FAA never finds out about it. If the pilot gets away with it long enough they start to think that it's an acceptable way to conduct business. Going along with what Jafi said, you would be a fool to take any advise given on this site (or any other site) as the gospel truth. However, if you're seriously entertaining the idea of "instructional" charter flying then I would highly recommend that you spend a few minutes with an aviation attorney. We did - with two experienced attorneys on each coast - and the answers and advice were the same.

A couple of years ago, there was an attempt to legalize the practice of "instructional" charter flying. The FAA was petitioned to allow CFIs to fly limited charters without the need to go through the all of the "Mickey Mouse" stuff associated with obtaining and maintaining a charter certificate. Needless to say, it didn't go very far before it withered on the vine.

I've said this before... the few hours that you might get trying to get a few "free" flying hours just isn't worth it in the grand scheme of things - not if you value your blemmish-free record.

Lead Sled

 

[midlifeflyer]

I submit that if you tell the FBO the deal, that she will be paying all the bills, making the schedules, etc. and you are approved by the FBO to fly the plane, this is legal and ethical.

Oh. I thought the "renter" had the complete unfettered choice of pilot. So I guess you're saying the FBO won't rent the airplane unless it can limit the choice of pilots to a select few.

Hmm. So exactly =who= is the FBO handing over control of the airplane to?

This is similar to the issue that comes up periodically with flight training. Some smart guy at an FBO would come up with the great idea that they were actually renting the airplane to the students rather than providing an airplane and instructor thus avoiding the need for 100 hour inspections. Great idea, that is until the FAA catches up.

 

[igneousy2]

This discussion scares me. There is NO GRAY AREA in this case. It is either flight instruction or this is charter. The fact that a "renter" can have operational control is obsurd and doesn't even deserve a response.

Everybody on this board knows your intent is for this flight to be a charter flight.

You know your intent is for this to be a charter flight.

I don't see what the question is.

There are many regulations the FAA would have a tough time proving you violated without an accident. VFR cloud clearence, preflight prep, maintenance write-ups, and many many more.

It is up to an individual pilot's integrity to follow the rules or not.

If you have integrity you won't "make" this trip flight instruction.

Whatever you decide to do I really don't care but please don't even try to say you are trying to do the right thing. It is obvious you are looking for a loop-hole.

Later

 

[A Squared]

This discussion scares me. There is NO GRAY AREA in this case. It is either flight instruction or this is charter. The fact that a "renter" can have operational control is obsurd and doesn't even deserve a response.

Everybody on this board knows your intent is for this flight to be a charter flight.

You know your intent is for this to be a charter flight.

I don't see what the question is.

There are many regulations the FAA would have a tough time proving you violated without an accident. VFR cloud clearence, preflight prep, maintenance write-ups, and many many more.

It is up to an individual pilot's integrity to follow the rules or not.

If you have integrity you won't "make" this trip flight instruction.

Whatever you decide to do I really don't care but please don't even try to say you are trying to do the right thing. It is obvious you are looking for a loop-hole.

Later

Hear! Hear!

Usually these "grey areas" aren't even the least bit grey. It's someone trying to pretend that it's grey, because they know what the black and white answer is, and they don't like that answer.