Part 91 and supplement with 135

[SheGaveMeClap]

Do any of you guys out there use your airplane on a 135 certificate to supplement your 91 flying?

Here's my theory. An owner buys an airplane and flys it 100-150 hours per year. They want to put more hours on it in a year, but they don't have the need to fly anymore, so they decide to fly it 8-10 hours per month Part 135.

In my current job, we do alot of Sentient trips. They treat us well and we have a great relationship with them. If the owner above buys an airplane, does Sentient have a Part 135 certificate you could put the airplane on and fly for them 3 or 4 days per month to get that additional 8-10 hours of flying per month?

I think in the next 3-5 years, the said owner would utilize the airplane 200-250 hours per year and not have to worry about the additional Part 135 flying, but in the meantime it might be convenient.

Any ideas?

 

[rice]

Do any of you guys out there use your airplane on a 135 certificate to supplement your 91 flying?

Here's my theory. An owner buys an airplane and flys it 100-150 hours per year. They want to put more hours on it in a year, but they don't have the need to fly anymore, so they decide to fly it 8-10 hours per month Part 135.

In my current job, we do alot of Sentient trips. They treat us well and we have a great relationship with them. If the owner above buys an airplane, does Sentient have a Part 135 certificate you could put the airplane on and fly for them 3 or 4 days per month to get that additional 8-10 hours of flying per month?

I think in the next 3-5 years, the said owner would utilize the airplane 200-250 hours per year and not have to worry about the additional Part 135 flying, but in the meantime it might be convenient.

Any ideas?

Doing 135 on top of 91 work SUCKS!!!!!!!!
IF you do it, get it writing that the crew has the discretion to turn down ANY 135 trip they choose as long as they attain the agreed upon total # of charter hours/year. YOU must keep control of your life and if you don't have it agreed upon in advance and IN WRITING you don't have squat!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes I believe Sentient does have a certificate, they purchased Altantic Aviation Flight Services about a year ago.

 

[G100driver]

Doing 135 on top of 91 work SUCKS!!!!!!!!
IF you do it, get it writing that the crew has the discretion to turn down ANY 135 trip they choose as long as they attain the agreed upon total # of charter hours/year. YOU must keep control of your life and if you don't have it agreed upon in advance and IN WRITING you don't have squat!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes I believe Sentient does have a certificate, they purchased Altantic Aviation Flight Services about a year ago.

Excellent advice!

 

[HMR]

Rice said it PERFECTLY. Also, Sentient would love to use your plane more than "8-10hrs" per month. They're not in business to make your life easy, they want to make money- primarily for themselves. However, if there's anything left over for the owner... (yeah right, like that ever happens).

I worked for a family that put their jet on contract with Sentient to do some "extra" flying. Sentient ended up putting 40-50+ hrs a month on the plane, the charter pax beat the crap out of the interior and the family wound up chartering other aircraft since their's seemed to be permanantly parked on the other side of the country @ TEB.

After a few years they decided they couldn't really afford a private jet (since charter netted zero dollars for them) and sold the plane.

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

I understand flying 135 on top of 91 sucks. I can appreciate that, believe me. We are in a part of the country where its inconvenient for Sentient to use us too much. We are far away from either coast and not many trips originate in our area. We work with Sentient right now, and they are extremely flexible. Maybe it's a unique situation, but they give us as many or as little hours per month as we would like. It's a great relationship.

The potential owner needs the airplane at our home base because there's an occassional pop-up (24-48 hours notice), and the airplane couldn't be on one coast or the other. Any trips that would work out part 135 would have to be day trips, getting back home in the evening. There's not many trips like that, so their use would be very limited. And on top of that, the owner wouldn't want anymore than 10 hours per month because it would be too hard on the plane.

He doesn't need extra flying to offset the cost of ownership, but would like to keep the airplane a little more busy than 10-15 hours per month that he'd use it.

Anyway, thanks for the opinions.

 

[HMR]

He doesn't need extra flying to offset the cost of ownership, but would like to keep the airplane a little more busy than 10-15 hours per month that he'd use it.

Just curious- What's the point in keeping the plane "a little more busy" if it doesn't offset the cost of ownership?

Does your boss have any friends in the area who'd be interested in using the plane? A dry-lease arrangement might be worth looking into.

FWIW- We've been flying 10-15 hrs a month for the past 2 years. The plane stays in great shape and if we feel like we're getting rusty there's plenty of contract work to do (I'm on a 5 day contract trip now). No complaints from the boss (or us).

 

[Freight Dog]

Doing 135 on top of 91 work SUCKS!!!!!!!!
IF you do it, get it writing that the crew has the discretion to turn down ANY 135 trip they choose as long as they attain the agreed upon total # of charter hours/year. YOU must keep control of your life and if you don't have it agreed upon in advance and IN WRITING you don't have squat!!!!!!!!!!!

Excellent advice! Not having this clause in your WRITTEN agreement with the owner should be a deal breaker.

Speaking from experience......

 

[CorpLearDriver]

I understand flying 135 on top of 91 sucks. I can appreciate that, believe me. We are in a part of the country where its inconvenient for Sentient to use us too much. We are far away from either coast and not many trips originate in our area. We work with Sentient right now, and they are extremely flexible. Maybe it's a unique situation, but they give us as many or as little hours per month as we would like. It's a great relationship.

The potential owner needs the airplane at our home base because there's an occassional pop-up (24-48 hours notice), and the airplane couldn't be on one coast or the other. Any trips that would work out part 135 would have to be day trips, getting back home in the evening. There's not many trips like that, so their use would be very limited. And on top of that, the owner wouldn't want anymore than 10 hours per month because it would be too hard on the plane.

He doesn't need extra flying to offset the cost of ownership, but would like to keep the airplane a little more busy than 10-15 hours per month that he'd use it.

Anyway, thanks for the opinions.

There is a fundamental difference between flying Part 91 and 135. Under part 91, you are not generating revenue for the company and thus, are a support operation for the whole. Under 135, the primary purpose is to generate revenue, hopefully to offset some of your expenses, not generate new ones. It is also the operator's (not the owner's) purpose to make as much money off of the aircraft as possible. The owner has the airplane for his convenience and if it isn't there when he needs it, that's not convenient.

The next thought is are you getting paid any extra for flying 135 trips or the same salary? Or, is there an additional crewmember assigned to the airplane to allow for the current crewmembers to have some sort of life? The operators always seem to sell the deal to owners that they can get 150 more hours out of an airplane and its crew at no extra salary expense, thus reducing the owners costs per hour. But to get those 150 hours more out of the pilot per year, how many days is it going to take away from the pilot's life at no extra income. As someone already said, doing 135 on top of 91 sucks.

Each situation is different. A few years back we tried it and it did not work with the owner’s schedule. When we returned to home base, the operator would try and generate the hours any way he could with short trips which cost more in fuel burn and higher cycles on the aircraft. We ended up pulling the plug on it. If you do 135, set it up from the start with the option of turning down a trip if it does not meet your minimum criteria. It will allow you to fly your 8 - 10 hours with a minimum amount of days doing so and fly more efficiently in the process.

Generally, I do not favor this arrangement. The owner never gets what he is promised, the crews loose control of their life, the operator is never satisfied enough with just the amount specified but makes the most from the deal and the charter pax abuse the airplane. Just my opinion.

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

Does your boss have any friends in the area who'd be interested in using the plane? A dry-lease arrangement might be worth looking into.

FWIW- We've been flying 10-15 hrs a month for the past 2 years. The plane stays in great shape and if we feel like we're getting rusty there's plenty of contract work to do (I'm on a 5 day contract trip now). No complaints from the boss (or us).

The guy buying the airplane (not my boss, but hopefully soon) doesn't think flying 100-150 hours per year justifies owning a jet outright. He has a friend who might lease the jet from him for 100 hours per year. If that works out, it'll be perfect. If it doesn't, he doesn't feel like it makes sense to own it. He subscribes to the old addage: if you fly less than 100 hours per year, charter. If it's between 100 and 400 hours per year, own fractional. If you fly more than 400 hours, then own your own. Since he doesn't fly this much, it doesn't make sense to own one.

He is a pilot himself and wants to own the jet. He detests the idea of owning a fractional share, and he doesn't charter. I don't think he really wants to lease the airplane to a charter company, but he wants the extra time. I don't completely understand it myself. The company he owns is growing at a steady pace and he will probably fly 200+ hours per year in the next two or three years. After that, I don't think he'll feel like he needs to put more time on the airplane more than he flies.

Okay, new question: How do I convince this guy that 100-150 hours per year is sufficient to own the airplane by himself? I have met pilots who fly this amount per year, and I think it's enough time for airplane ownership. What do I say to make him think the same? Looking forward to the replies....

Edit: He doesn't really want to fly this airplane Part 135. He knows it could get beat up by charter pax, it's actually the last resort. The lease with his buddy would be the most desireable, and owning it himself might be more appealing than chartering it out. I think he'd really have to talk himself into leasing it for charter. As the previous poster said, that way it would be available all the time when he needs it.

 

[Count Dracula]

Well, if he detests fractionals and doesn't like to charter then have him fly on the airlines to a meeting say in Fayettville, AR. After all the BS, that 100-150 hours he flies on his corporate jet will be money well spent. I suggest a dry-lease agreement with another person or organization that could use an aircraft a small amount of time (10-15 hours a month) Maybe some marketing of potential business partners or companies in the area would help?

We have a dry-lease agreement with a company that flies the same airplane as we do. We use each other as a backup aircraft, as well as to supplement additional trips in advance. No charter needed and we both fill a need for each other.

 

[mobie]

The lease to a buddy is very close to 135 it could very well bite you.
Mobie

 

[HMR]

The lease to a buddy is very close to 135 it could very well bite you.
Mobie

Very true. Having an experienced attorney draw up the contract can make all the difference between PT134.5 and a legitimate dry-lease arrangement.

 

[100-1/2]

it sounds to me like you do not already possess a 135 Certificate?

If this is the case, how are you providing work for Sentient?

Even with a (dormant) certificate that they purchased some years ago, you cannot engage another operator in a "wet Lease" unless that operator holds their own Air Carrier Certificate.

Sentient is a scam. And any broker passing themselves off as a "Certificated Operator" is a thief. There is nowhere in 135 that authorizes exercise of operational control over "SOMEONE ELSE'S" aircraft. Those that are doing it are no better than PFT or some lame-o riding shotgun (for free) in an aircraft type certificated for "TWO" pilots.

100-1/2

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

it sounds to me like you do not already possess a 135 Certificate?

If this is the case, how are you providing work for Sentient?

There is nowhere in 135 that authorizes exercise of operational control over "SOMEONE ELSE'S" aircraft. Those that are doing it are no better than PFT or some lame-o riding shotgun (for free) in an aircraft type certificated for "TWO" pilots.

100-1/2

Settle down. At my CURRENT job, we are a 135 operator. We work with Sentient, and they treat us VERY well. We have operational control over EVERY flight we operate for Sentient. The owner in the above situation is a potential buyer, he doesn't own the airplane yet, and is a potential employer for me.

Mobie, it could turn out they become partners in the airplane, equal owners. If it comes down to a lease agreement, they will involve an attorney and make everything legal.

Contrails, he owns a turboprop right now, but is looking at upgrading to a jet. The airlines aren't an option either. The turboprop fits his mission fine right now, he would like to get into a Citation of some sort.

 

[Piper877]

If he really just wants to put time on the airplane why not send it out to potential clients, current clients or whatever? I'm not sure if this gets into the area of 135 or not because I'm not up to date on the exact regs but maybe that might work as a perk for being a customer of his or to schmooze potential new business. Just a thought.

 

[Rick1128]

First of all there are some tax advantages to having the aircraft on a charter certificate. Plus some certification advantages. For a jet the maintenance requirements don't change. Certification advantages are RVSM, MNPS, NATS CEPAC, NORPAC, etc. Our aircraft is on a certificate and we average about one trip a year. Our boss charges extra top dollar and the operator only uses us as a last resort.

Also tell your future boss, that based on other operators' history, they tend to find all sorts of extra trips and uses for the aircraft. I flew for one owner that stated very clearly that we wouldn't fly over 500 hrs/yr. First year was 970 hours.

Doing extra flying can be a pain in the a$$, but depending on the trips can also be interesting if not fun.

 

[rice]

Excellent advice! Not having this clause in your WRITTEN agreement with the owner should be a deal breaker.

Speaking from experience......

Wish I'd thought about it BEFORE I signed up a few years ago. Oh well, live and learn!!!!! I have bigger issues with these guys now anyway. Anyone in this industry had three vacations cancelled in one year???????

 

[G100driver]

Do they re-imburse you for deposits and plan tickets?

Sorry, to hear that.

 

[100-1/2]

Clap,

The background to your question does not commensurate with the type ratings and 4000+ hours of flight time and lacks relevant detail as poiniently addressed along with the command worthy of my 4 year old to open your responding post.

With all this experience, why then would it not occur to you to position yourself into a "management" role over the (BOTH current and future) aircraft whereby you contract with your CURRENT 135 employer to operate the current and future aircraft for your new boss. Your New boss pays a flat monthly fee for his current and future aircraft to be on your Old Boss' Certificate. You take a cut of the management fee, a fixed salary from your new boss and bonuses for extra flying for your old company who compensates your new boss at an hourly rate plus surcharges for excessive use.

Well, there you go. Pissed me off and i practically started a company for you. Enjoy it while it lasts. It is a delicate ballet of dipomacy I doubt you can sustain, given your personality in this and other threads i have seen you post.

100-1/2

 

[Flybet3]

Do any of you guys out there use your airplane on a 135 certificate to supplement your 91 flying?

Here's my theory. An owner buys an airplane and flys it 100-150 hours per year. They want to put more hours on it in a year, but they don't have the need to fly anymore, so they decide to fly it 8-10 hours per month Part 135.

In my current job, we do alot of Sentient trips. They treat us well and we have a great relationship with them. If the owner above buys an airplane, does Sentient have a Part 135 certificate you could put the airplane on and fly for them 3 or 4 days per month to get that additional 8-10 hours of flying per month?

I think in the next 3-5 years, the said owner would utilize the airplane 200-250 hours per year and not have to worry about the additional Part 135 flying, but in the meantime it might be convenient.

Any ideas?

Well, say good buy to your personal life chump. Unless you set some ground rules from the beginning like some of these guys said. Then you are in for a surprise. You wont realy off set much costs. The owner will ask for 10 then that wont be enough. Some months might be very slow, so you'll have to stay available as much as you can. My last job we did about 25 to 30 hours (well we tried) and flew the owner only like 5 hours in a month. i remember two months we didnt see him at all. So it was all charter. One of those months we only flew like 18 hours and had only one day off. Why? b/c we had to keep the airplane available for charter. I personally could've not given two sh*ts about it, my attitude was well, even if we did 20 or 30 hours of charter the owner was never really happy anyways. But unless your flying partner feels the same way you do, then you wont have any real days off and you are at the mercy of the pager/cell phone. Good luck chump

 

[Flybet3]

Wish I'd thought about it BEFORE I signed up a few years ago. Oh well, live and learn!!!!! I have bigger issues with these guys now anyway. Anyone in this industry had three vacations cancelled in one year???????

I had the owners secretary call me and say " Hey B, Mr. Boss was just told that your captain is going to take his vacation in May and he wants you to take it as well."

That's when I said, F*CK THAT, and F*CK THIS JOBS...I'M OUT!!
The owner was a pretty nice guy overall, his wife was sweet but he was pretty unreasonable and was a "pilot" him self...so you know, he "knew his stuff"

 

[g159av8tor]

I understand flying 135 on top of 91 sucks. I can appreciate that, believe me. We are in a part of the country where its inconvenient for Sentient to use us too much. And on top of that, the owner wouldn't want anymore than 10 hours per month because it would be too hard on the plane.

He doesn't need extra flying to offset the cost of ownership, but would like to keep the airplane a little more busy than 10-15 hours per month that he'd use it.

Anyway, thanks for the opinions.

I wouldn't do it if I were to fly that airplane. By trying to look like a hero for your friend, you just gonna shoot yourself in the foot.

Tailwinds...

 

[jeb]

First off I think you are in a dream world if you think you will only fly 8 to 10 hours additional a month. Have you considered the extra cost of flying on a 135 certificate. First there is additional insurance and training cost for the crew. Don't forget management fees. They don't do this for free. We did this along time ago with a well known company we had to fly about six hours to break even. I don't know what type aircraft you are flying but in a jet you have to fly trips that will produce income. I had the authority to accept or decline trips. We seemed to get offered trips that would be less than two hours for the day and we might sit six hours or longer. We did have a min guarantee of two hours. We did about 100 -125 per year. Bottom line the wear and tear on the airplane and the airplane wasn't available the owner gave it up. After all said and done I believe the company made around 25,000 dollars profit on the charter end. For the crew we did get treated okay, but the charter company did try to back door us (crew) and crew the airplane themselves and save the owner money. Care to take a guess what company that was?

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

Clap,

The background to your question does not commensurate with the type ratings and 4000+ hours of flight time and lacks relevant detail as poiniently addressed along with the command worthy of my 4 year old to open your responding post. This is a huge run-on sentence and doesn't make much sense.

With all this experience, why then would it not occur to you to position yourself into a "management" role over the (BOTH current and future) aircraft whereby you contract with your CURRENT 135 employer to operate the current and future aircraft for your new boss. Your New boss pays a flat monthly fee for his current and future aircraft to be on your Old Boss' Certificate. You take a cut of the management fee, a fixed salary from your new boss and bonuses for extra flying for your old company who compensates your new boss at an hourly rate plus surcharges for excessive use. Pretty easy answer, because the guy buying the airplane won't deal with my current employer. Current employer burned him a few years ago and they don't deal with eachother.

Well, there you go. Pissed me off and i practically started a company for you. Enjoy it while it lasts. It is a delicate ballet of dipomacy I doubt you can sustain, given your personality in this and other threads i have seen you post. If this pisses you off, then you need to take some time off, enjoy the weekend, and have a few coldies. And what about my personality? A guy asks a fairly simple question and I get this? Seems I'm not the one with the personality disorder.

100-1/2

Whew, good ol' 100-1/2 and FlyBet3 get a little emotional about the topic at hand. At any rate, there is a solution in the works. The whole thing was a hypothetical and apparently a few folks got angry about it. For those of you who gave rational replies, thanks. For 100-1/2 and Bet3, you fellas need to get l.a.i.d. more often. Relax, life is too short.

 

[Flybet3]

Whew, good ol' 100-1/2 and FlyBet3 get a little emotional about the topic at hand. At any rate, there is a solution in the works. The whole thing was a hypothetical and apparently a few folks got angry about it. For those of you who gave rational replies, thanks. For 100-1/2 and Bet3, you fellas need to get l.a.i.d. more often. Relax, life is too short.

Dude, personally I'm not getting emotional. I'm just saying what happened to me and to many of my flying pals. I have to agree with one of the guys, there is a tax benefit to all of this. But unless you have a down to earth owner, that really thinks that 8 to 10 hours will be all. Then, heck...sounds good to me. But 10 hours turn into 20, 20 into 30 and so on. Oh and by the way, I'm already getting more than enough pu$$y, anymore and I wont sleep.....gotta give mr. Snake some rest ya know?

 

[VA AV8R]

I don't post that often around here but I have to disagree with the notion that flying 135 and 91 "Sucks". I think it really depends on your arrangement, which as people have said, should really be nailed down.

I work for an outfit with five aircraft (all PC-12's). We manage them for the owners, and offer them to the 'public' when not in use by the owners. I fly and average of around 45 hours per month, with usually no more than six to seven overnights tops. According to my records, I average 14 days off per month. The lowest number of days off I've had is 10.

Two of the owners are awesome to fly for, and two are... not Some of our 135 clients are great and others should be left in the middle of the desert for dead. Such is life.

We're paid a base salary + an hourly and I make 5K-7K above the "average" salary numbers for the airplane. Medical/Dental is fully paid for - no deductible out of my pocket (only copays).

I've worked for straight 91 outfits that were very abusive; we adhere to 135 regulations whether the flight is 91 or 135. There is a Part 91 op located on the field with us flying a CE650 and they have three owners, three pilots. Those guys work all the time. We have our moments to be sure, but they only last for a couple of weeks at a time before things settle down to a much more tolerable average of 3.5-4 days per week of work.

As well all know the best arrangement is a Part 91 owner who respects their flight crew and sees the aircraft as an asset, not a revenue generating tool.

 

[Spooky 2]

First off I think you are in a dream world if you think you will only fly 8 to 10 hours additional a month. Have you considered the extra cost of flying on a 135 certificate. First there is additional insurance and training cost for the crew. Don't forget management fees. They don't do this for free. We did this along time ago with a well known company we had to fly about six hours to break even. I don't know what type aircraft you are flying but in a jet you have to fly trips that will produce income. I had the authority to accept or decline trips. We seemed to get offered trips that would be less than two hours for the day and we might sit six hours or longer. We did have a min guarantee of two hours. We did about 100 -125 per year. Bottom line the wear and tear on the airplane and the airplane wasn't available the owner gave it up. After all said and done I believe the company made around 25,000 dollars profit on the charter end. For the crew we did get treated okay, but the charter company did try to back door us (crew) and crew the airplane themselves and save the owner money. Care to take a guess what company that was?

Jeb, yes I would like to know the name of that company.

 

[h25b]

There's nothing wrong with letting us know exactly who that was... Please...