part 141

cookmg

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hi all.

Is it true that you can earn a commercial license with less 250 hours if your training is from a part 141 school? Anybody know which FAR verifies this? What restrictions does this exception have?

Thanks!

Mike
 

maxcackel

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yes this is true. At FlightSafety you get you commercial with 190 and 30 of that is in the frasca simulator. It's not in the far's but a pre-approved syllabus by the FAA aka 141.
 

sabreliner

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Umm...My recommendation would be to pull out your copy of the FAR's and look up 14CFR141 and see what it says about getting a commercial license. You can answer your own question there.

or:

To summarize, you can get a commercial with as little as 190 hours by completing a very specific course of instruction. It usually includes many hours of flying and instruction to complete, and there is no getting around the requirements.

For specifics, you should contact a local 141 approved school and ask them about their FAA approved syllabus. They can vary a little between schools and FSDO's, but they are all generally the same.

This would work for you if you are a long way away from the 250 hrs, and can commit to a structured and exhaustive course of instruction. If you are close to 250 hrs, or want more flexibility, a 141 course isn't for you.
 

Vandal

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maxcackel said:
yes this is true. At FlightSafety you get you commercial with 190 and 30 of that is in the frasca simulator. It's not in the far's but a pre-approved syllabus by the FAA aka 141.

The 190 hours from flightsafety, which is the minimum pretty much (I left with 194), does not include your 25-30 hours in the frasca.
 

172driver

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"The 190 hours from flightsafety, which is the minimum pretty much (I left with 194), does not include your 25-30 hours in the frasca."

"you can get a commercial with as little as 190 hours by completing a very specific course of instruction."

Don't speak before you know the answer people. I got my commercial ticket with 122 hrs of TT and 4 hrs in the Frasca (in the commercial course) at Comair. 40 hrs in the airplane for commercial and about the same for private and instrument. This is probably below the average but 150 is very common. An approved course is an approved course. The only minimums are the numbers blessed by the FAA in the training course outline for the specific school and course. Comair is lucky to be blessed with low minimums.
 

dmspilot00

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Cook,

Your profile says that you already have 130 hours. I am assuming you did your initial training under Part 61. If that is true then I highly recommend you do not try to do your commercial training under part 141.

You'll need to have 120 hours at the Part 141 school for a commercial certificate. If they let you, (most don't), you can transfer up to 25% of the required time, or 30 hours in thise case, from your previous training. So, you still wouldn't be able to get the commercial under 141 until you have 220 hours.

Under Part 61, you are allowed 50 hours toward the commercial with a simulator or flight training device. So you can actually get it in 200 hours under 61.
 

172driver

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Absolutely untrue. Did you even read my previous post? The Comair CASEL course is quoted at 35 hrs in the plane and 6 hrs in the FTD. It matters not what your hours are when you come in. A course completed equals a rating. Of course, if cookmg has no instrument rating, he/she would have to complete that course first. That course is quoted at 24 hrs in the plane and 14 in the Frasca.

Where you got that info about transferring time, I don't know. If you want to enter in the middle of a course that may hold true but if you start from Lesson 1, previous time matters not.

Even if you could complete instrument and commercial Part 61 in exactly 250 hrs, you would still be 60 hrs beyond the 141 course requirements. BTW...FTD's aren't that much cheaper than airplanes and aren't worth the small amt of $$ you save except for instrument work and maybe intro to a more complex plane, IMO.

Now, that's not to say you would necessarily save any money doing it 141. You must be very motivated, hard working, and a quick learner to complete the course in the quoted times. Even then, you'll probably go over a bit, just like any quote from any school, be it 61 or 141. As I said before...I completed the 2 courses with 40 hrs in each(airplane). So, the question becomes, do you need those extra 40-60 hrs to be able to pass a checkride?

Also, there is a very different feel to 141 training than 61, in my experience. 141 is very structured...specific lessons with specific tasks that have to be performed to specific standards. Much less cross-country time. Standardized instructors. Some people like the structure, some don't.

I really can't choose because I loved my training in both realms. I can say that my students who come from Part 61 are way behind the 8 ball compared to the ones who have gone 141 all the way. However, that is not an indictment of 61. My 61 CFI was the best guy I've ever flown with and I felt very well prepared for any type of subsequent flight training. I think the reason for the catching up period of the outside guys is simply learning to fly in a standardized program i.e. checklists for everything, standards manual, some have barely ever flown into a towered field, some have never flown to a nontowered field.

Bottom line is...all roads lead to the same place. Choose what you think is best for your wallet and, more importantly, your education. Hope this helps. Fly safe.
 
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dmspilot00

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It does matter what your hours are when you come in. If one already has 130 hours, then he only needs 120 more to complete the commercial under Part 61. This is the same as most of the Part 141 courses. Part 61 is better in that you can have fun flying however you want instead of having someone telling you what to do for every single flight. Part 61 doesn't have to be unstructured, if it feels that you are flying along aimlessly on every lesson then it is the fault of the instructor, not the fault of the regulations the training is conducted under.

I am sorry; you are right in that there is a small loophole which allows a course to be certified without meeting the minimum time requirements specified in FAR Part 141. However, this is rare and Comair is the first school I've heard of to take advantage of this.

It is likely that if cookmg decides to train under Part 141, then the commercial requirement will be 120 hours, which will put him at 250 hours by the time he's done anyway (unless the school accepts his previous time, then it would be minimum of 220). Might as well cut the red tape and train under Part 61.

FTDs around here are very cheap, from free to $20/hour at the most. If cookmg lives somewhere where he can have access to one as cheaply as this, it will save him quite a bit of money. I agree, however, that it really isn't valuable time from a standpoint of gaining knowledge and experience, but if he has trouble getting the flight time he needs then it is an economical way to do it.

It is unrealistic to expect a person won't be able to complete the commercial under Part 61 in 250 hours. Most people trouble getting enough time (250 hours) to meet the requirement. Most people who go over 250 do so willingly or on purpose.

172driver said:
Where you got that info about transferring time, I don't know.

141.77(c) "A student may be given credit towards the curriculum requirements of a course for previous pilot experience and knowledge, provided...

"(2) If the credit is not based upon (experience and knowledge from) a Part 141-approved training course, the credit given that student for the previous pilot experience and knowledge shall not exceed more than 25 percent of the curriculum requirements..."
 
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Eric

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Vandal said:


The 190 hours from flightsafety, which is the minimum pretty much (I left with 194), does not include your 25-30 hours in the frasca.


Vandal

The 190 hours does include 30hrs in the Frasca. The syllabus only calls for 160 flight hours
 

172driver

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"It is likely that if cookmg decides to train under Part 141, then the commercial requirement will be 120 hours, which will put him at 250 hours by the time he's done anyway"

Cookmg could attend Comair and obtain his commercial ticket with 35 hrs which would give him 155 total. Where's the red tape in that?

Agreed about 61 being more fun flying! Remember though, the amount of fun and education per hr depends entirely on the CFI and the student, not the school or the rules you're training under.
 

dmspilot00

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By the tone of the message it seemed like he was asking about Part 141 schools in general. It isn't probable he will travel across the country just to go to Comair, unless he lives near it. He probably did his Private close by under 61, and if he was considering the big 141 schools like Comair he would have probably been there already. That is why I said "likely" because only a few select schools offer the reduced requirement.

When I said "red tape" I was speaking of all of the strict lessons and also all the paperwork that comes with Part 141 courses. I think a lot of schools just get the 141 certification to make it seem like the quality is higher than it really is. Not all of them are bad of course, and I am sure there are enough bad 61-only schools also. However I think there are more bad 141 schools than there are bad 61 schools, not only because of the reason I just mentioned, but also because poor instructors can get away with being poor easier under Part 141.

The amount of "fun" does depend on the instructor and the student, but on the school/FBO as well. Some are just better than others, allow more freedom, etc. For example, the stories we hear of how students have to battle each other for a plane because there aren't enough at a certain school... that makes it a lot less fun don't you think? Doesn't it also makes a difference whether the management of the school is in the business to make money or is in the business to have fun? I am not in flying to have political debates like some of these schools I hear (or should I say aviation colleges).
 
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