Part 141 v.s. 61

[morph]

I recently did a search on this forum for the differences between 141 and 61. I was really surprised to see that many student/CFI's felt as though part 61 was a better deal. I will have to totally disagree. If you used a flight academy to make your decision on which program was better then you probably need to take another approach to your final outcome. I can guarantee that the student pilots that felt 61 was a better deal didn't do there flight training at universities such as ERAU, LeTu, Spartan etc... You will also realize that the FAA feels the same way. For example you need at least 35 hours for part 141 and 40 hours for 61. I'm curious to know why it's 5 hours more? Just a thought though. Anyways I'm not here to start an argument but feel as though part 141 was severely bashed. As stated in 141 you WILL be evaluated by more than one instructor and thats a guarantee. Personally I think in the end a certificate or rating is still a certificate or rating. Just before bashing part 141 really try to experience a real 141 program before going on a rampage about how wonderful 61 is v.s 141. Cheers

 

[727Mania]

Actually, I experienced both programs, at ERAU and the off campus FBO. It all depends on what your career goal is. I honestly think the quality of training outside ERAU was better since these were experienced pilots with 10 or more years of flying. ERAU, I was learning from people two or three yearsdown the road from me. One other factor that was important to me were flight hours. Since 141 had less hours than the 61 but the tuition was more. I just couldn't understand paying all that money to complete the program with 250 hours in a 172. I think the prior messages were from people who experienced what I have, we all have our own opinions and desires in life, Let's respect that.

 

[FL000]

Edited for diplomacy:

I don't think either 141 or 61 is better than the other. It depends on the individual and what works best for him. Part 61 was best for me, and if I had to do it over, I wouldn't do it any other way.

One point which cannot be argued: part 61 is far less expensive.

 

[tarp]

141 vs. 61

There is absolutely nothing wrong with 141 except that I think the FAA should have a mandatory card that is handed to you when you are about to sign on the dotted line. The card will state the following:
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Dear Student Pilot -

You are about to sign a contract for Part 141 school. To remain a 141 candidate will require that you meet certain goal criteria in a specified amount of time. If you fail to meet that goal, you will have one (1) opportunity to remediate that lesson and one (1) opportunity to show proficiency with another instructor. The flight school is permitted to charge you additional funds for each additional lesson required to return you to the stated criteria.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
The problem for most people is the curriculum in a 141 school is tight - real tight. If you have a short attention span, if you are a little challenged, if you have a hard time with reading comprehension, if you fall asleep in AV lectures, if you are not the most adept at eye-hand coordination - then you may have a hard time with a Pt 141 school.

The stated goal of my Pt 61 curriculum for a PPL is 40 hours. I teach on the outskirts of the Wash DC Class B and now ADIZ. With a complicated and crowded airspace to deal with, my average student time is 63 hours at check ride. The 23 hours aren't my fault - the curriculum is already built around 40 hours - but my students just don't go to the practice area and show me total mastery of the skies - they have problems. Almost everyone has landing problems, some can't stand stalls, some can't get used to 3-dimensional thinking, some couldn't find their way home if I had the State spray paint flourescent arrows on the ground. Now teaching in the DC area is a definite disadvantage - if I was doing this in Kansas, you could probably lop 10 hours right off the top. But folks still have problems.

A lot of 141 school bashing comes from people not prepared for the onslaught and for the cost racheting that comes from even the smallest failure. There are plenty of folks who do just fine! But they are either prepared or mature enough to catch up in a hurry. The overwhelming majority for a 61 school is probably because most people have gone the 61 route and also didn't get their licence right at 40 hours either - they had hiccups or problems and realized that a PPL is not just fun - its work. I think the 141 schools should publish that staying on curriculum is like being on the honor roll at high school (or being in that advanced group thing) - it takes work and dedication to stay there.

I think its marvelous that there is the 141 program and it has the potential to teach people in a shorter timeframe and in well maintained equipment. BUT - its not for everybody.

 

[Ryan]

I did my private part 61 and am now doing my instrument part 141 so I can collect my GI Bill. Im doing my instrument at the same FBO that I did my private and I havent seen to many differences between the two. The one thing that I have noticed and that I do like is that in 141 a much more detailed record is kept of every training flight. The reason I like this is that the instructor never asks me what we did last time, its all right there for him to see so he knows exactly what we need to do for the next lesson. This really saves time and frustration for both the student and the instructor.

 

[bobbysamd]

Ah, hah! The old Part 61 v. Part 141 debate

I've seen it from both sides of the desk. I did all of my training under Part 61 with instructors who owned their own airplanes. My aviation career was instructing primarily in Part 141 venues.

I initially started flying for fun, so Part 61 was fine. In the back of my mind was getting my Commercial because I thought that I could then get my CFI and instruct to have flying pay for itself. I always figured that all Commercial-CFIs were the same. I found out how wrong I was when I went to work at ERAU. The level of knowledge exhibited by the instructors and students blew my mind! I knew I had to catch up, which, for the most part, I did, but I always felt that there were gaps in my knowledge which I would not have had if I trained in a 141 environment. That's why I come out so strongly in favor of 141 schools for would-be serious flight students.

Tarp put up an extremely entertaining, and accurate, post about 141 schools. But what he wrote is why I like them. A 141 school is, well . . . school. A school environment demands a certain measure of motivation and dedication, and imposes a certain measure of discipline. Having some discipline imposed upon students is good for them. I'm not saying that flight instructors should abandon friendliness in favor of facism, but challenging your students forces growth and promotes learning.

I found that out first-hand during my early days at Riddle. I was not hard on my students and they did not do well. The Chief Instructor yanked me into his office and said I needed to get tough. I did. I demanded more from my students and their performance improved, and so did mine. My students were flying better than I was at similar points in their training because the discpline I provided.

Preparation is the key for a 141 school. A student who is absolutely serious about training and who prepares thoroughly for each lesson will do fine in the program. It was my experience that the unprepared and screw-offs were the ones who needed so much extra training and saw their costs ratchet up.

Finally, I have to disagree with the multitudes who say the airlines don't care where you trained. I think you win points if you show that you graduated from a 141 program. It exhibits a measure of dedication maybe not exhibited by a Part 61 background. But a lot depends on the school. There are some fine Part 61 programs. I would just not recommend doing Part 61 the way I did. I am sure I would have done better in my career had I trained properly under Part 141.

 

[RedheadCFI]

Ok.. let me throw in my 2 cents..

I trained at Pan Am and they offered 61 and 141. I did all my ratings except my commercial under 141. The reason I did that is because when I got done with my training prior to commercial I had almost 250 hours and it would of actually cost more to do the 141 commercial. From my experience it was nice to do it that way. I have to say that 141 private and instrument are really the way to go. However, after that the commercial course was better the way I did it because I was able to build multi time at that level and then use it towards commercial which means I ended up with 100hrs of multi and spent less money then the guys doing the single commercial time building with multi add-on later. But, of course that is not the preferred route for all. I am teaching at a 141 school right now and one thing I have to say is that our 141 kids vs. the part 61's that transfer in are generally much more educated with ground knowledge. However, when it comes to the stick flying I've seen a very even distribution.. and if I had to vote I'd say the 61'ers were better sticks. Now, this doesn't take into consideration that some of these kids were probably part 61 slackers. I have to say that I have met some guys from part 61 that were way ahead on the knowledge but just taking a general sampling that usually isn't the case. In my honest opinion I think there are alot of really good part 61 schools out there but there are even more bad ones. So, 61 around here usually gets dogged as "un-professional and recreation flyers" I don't believe that so much because I have seen my good share of awesome part 61 pilots. Like the guys said above you really have to figure out what works for you, cheapest isn't always the best but if you can find a good instructor teamed up with a good FBO then go for it.
-Nick

 

[FlyinBrian]

I thought I'd toss in 2 more cents:

There are fantastic part 61 schools and miserable part 141 schools. Many people will recommend a part 141 school because they are subjected to more scrutiny by the FAA and therefore are more likely to run a tight ship. The difference in time that it takes to obtain ratings is very rarely a significan reason to choose one type of school over the other. Very few private pilots at 141 schools obtain their rating with fewer than 40 hours.

The time requirements of each part may affect your choice with the commercial rating. If you have fewer than 130 hours, your private and your instrument you may benefit from 141 training. IF YOU HAVE MORE THAN 130, 141 TRAINING MINIMUMS FOR THE COMMERCIAL ARE HIGHER THAN WITH 61. This is often misunderstood.

Also, while most 141 schools only requre 35 hours, some 141 syllabi actually require more than 40 hours! You must complete the entire 141 syllabus to graduate, so if the syllabus has more than 40 hours, you will need more than 40 as well.

Bottom line, feel out the school and find a flight instructor who is knowledgeable, competent, and has a good pass rate. Worry more about who your instructor is than what school he or she may work for.

 

[Tweetdrvr]

One more opinion

I did my private Pt 61 as an Air Force nav on the way to UPT and my commercial single engine add on and CFI at a 141 school after having about 1000 military flying hours.

There are people who fly just for fun, there are people who fly for money and some people who love to fly just happen to get paid for it.

I think all people need a little fun in their flying. Especially in the new AF system where the students are getting their private tickets paid for by the govt as part of this Intro to Flight Training (IFT) thing. Before they show up to UPT where we take the fun out of everyday flying, they need to know that flying was fun and will be fun again when they graduate. If they did not know that fun in the first place, some of them might be more likely to quit the program. I just wish I could be in charge of getting all the military students to the good flight schools either 141 or 61. The differences in knowledge levels in the students we get are amazing. Some learned just enough to pass the checkride, and some really learned a lot about aviation. The ones that learned alot about aviation are on whole more motivated, better all around students.

I instructed at a Pt 61 school and loved the independence of it. But sometimes it was very frustrating when students weren't prepared for lessons. It was fun to teach students how to fuel planes, because sometimes that was the quickest way to get airborne rather than wait on the busy FBO line guys.

If we all had the discipline to work very hard and study when we should, Part 61 would be a great way to get started in aviation. That would give people the chance to get their feet wet and go at their own pace.

When you go beyond the Private/Instrument level and go down the road to being a professional pilot, you are starting a path of great importance. Professional pilots are a valuable natural resource, vital to this nations economy in many aspects not just big airline aviation. Beyond private, I think 141 is the way to go to provide the structure and discipline required for all pilots either civilian only or civilian to military so that we grow the greatest pilots possible under our system.