Part 135 King Air SIC Flying

[aroundtheblock]

I fly PIC for a Part 135 King Air operator. We are trained as single pilot with an auto pilot. Insurance requires us to have 2 pilots on board. Both pilots have a current 293 and 297 checkride but only captains have a 299 line check. My question is can the other pilot manipulate the controls under Part 135?

 

[501261]

Good question!

I don't think they can. If your company OPSPEC's don't provide for an SIC, they can't touch the controls on a 135 leg. They're not PIC qualified under 135 either so the only time they can log is the 91 legs that they are flying.

Best thing to do is probably talk to your POI and get you OPSPECs changed to include SICs.

 

[Be200pilot]

We operate the same way at my company. Our ops specs require an SIC at all times. That was the companies decision to lower insurance costs I believe. On 135 legs, if the SIC is the sole manipulator, he/she can log PIC. The is a difference between serving and acting as PIC. You must have an ATP to serve as PIC but do not need one to act as PIC. The same rules apply even if you operate with and autopilot. Obviously the SIC must be appropriately rated and must be current with pt. 135 SIC checkrides. Most 135 ops are going to two pilot ops in the King Air 200 anyways.

I realize I probably have not described it well here but I got all the info from www.propilot.com/doc/logging2.html
There are at least 10 pages on exactly this topic.

 

[501261]

On 135 legs, if the SIC is the sole manipulator, he/she can log PIC. The is a difference between serving and acting as PIC. You must have an ATP to serve as PIC but do not need one to act as PIC.

You see this is were DOC makes a very simple concept complicated. If you are not PIC qualifed under 135 (i.e. completed 135.293, 297, 299 checks) then you can not LOG PIC under 135.

In Aroundtheblocks example the company does not have authorization to use an SIC, since the SIC is not allowed to be there under OPSPECs he can't log the time under PIC or SIC.

Also, you do not need an ATP to fly a King Air as PIC under 135. Look closely at 135.243 the ATP requirement is only for turbojets, the King Air is a turbo PROP.

 

[mike1mc]

I agree with BE200pilot.

As long as the SIC is required to be there (according the the regs, not insurance), has the appropriate certificates/ratings, and has an 8410, s/he can fly the 135 legs. I don't even think the SIC needs to have a 297 check, as long as they are instrument current according to Part 61. Think of it as an airline when the FO flies, but make sure they have all the required paperwork, are current, and havr a reason to be there (VFR doesn't count unless they are required by §135.99 or §135.111). Also keep in mind that the regs are slightly different for freight ops as compared to passenger-carrying ops.

 

[mike1mc]

The OpsSpecs do not allow for an SIC, they allow for an autopilot INSTEAD of the SIC. Below is a letter that I was given when I asked the same question. It provides at least one interpretation on the matter. Perhaps it is outdated, but is where I obtained my reasoning:


Legal Interpretation # 92-14

March 26, 1992

Mr. Michael G. Tarsa

Dear Mr. Tarsa:

Thank you for your letter of April 3, 1991, in which you ask
questions about logging pilot-in-command (PIC) and
second-in-command (SIC) time when operating under Part 135 of the
Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR). We apologize that staff
shortages, regulatory matters, and interpretation requests
received prior to yours prevented us from answering your
questions sooner.

Your letter presents the following scenario: a Part 135
certificate holder conducts operations in multiengine airplanes
under instrument flight rules (IFR). The operator has approval
to conduct operations without an SIC using an approved autopilot
under the provisions of FAR 135.105. The operator has assigned a
fully qualified pilot, who has had a Part 135 competency check,
to act as SIC in an aircraft that does not require two pilots
under its type certification. Although FAR 135.101 requires an
SIC for Part 135 operations in IFR conditions, the autopilot
approval is an exception to that requirement.

You correctly state that while the SIC is flying the airplane, he
can log PIC time in accordance with FAR 61.51(c)(2)(i) because he
is appropriately rated and current, and is the sole manipulator
of the controls. Additionally, he has passed the competency
checks required for Part 135 operations, at least as SIC.

You then ask two questions. The first asks whether the pilot
designated as PIC by the employer, as required by FAR 135.109,
can log PIC time while the SIC is actually flying the airplane.
The answer is yes.

FAR 1.1 defines pilot in command:

(1) Pilot in command means the pilot responsible for the
operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time.

FAR 91.3 describes the pilot in command:

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly
responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the
operation of that aircraft.

There is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC
time. Part 61 deals with logging flight time, and it is
important to note that section 61.51, Pilot logbooks, only
regulates the recording of:

(a) The aeronautical training and experience used to meet
the requirements for a certificate or rating, or the recent
flight experience requirements of this part.

FAR 61.51(c) addresses logging of pilot time:

(2) Pilot-in-command flight time. (i) A recreational,
private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time
only that flight time during which that pilot is the sole
manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the
pilot is rated, or when the pilot is the sole occupant of
the aircraft, or, except for a recreational pilot, when
acting as pilot-in-command of an aircraft on which more
than one pilot is required under the type certification of
the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is
conducted.

(ii) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot in command
time all of the flight time during which he acts as pilot
in command.

(iii) (omitted).

(3) Second-in-command flight time. A pilot may log as
second in command time all flight time during which he acts
as second in command of an aircraft on which more than one
pilot is required under the type certification of the
aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is
conducted.

As you can see, there are two ways to log pilot-in-command flight
time that are pertinent to your question. The first is as the
pilot responsible for the safety and operation of an aircraft
during flight time. If a pilot is designated as PIC for a flight
by the certificate holder, as required by FAR 135.109, that
person is pilot in command for the entire flight, no matter who
is actually manipulating the controls of the aircraft, because
that pilot is responsible for the safety and operation of the
aircraft.

The second way to log PIC flight time that is pertinent to your
question is to be the sole manipulator of the controls of an
aircraft for which the pilot is rated, as you mention in your
letter. Thus, a multiengine airplane flown under Part 135 by two
pilots can have both pilots logging time as pilot in command when
the appropriately rated second in command is manipulating the
controls.

We stress, however, that here we are discussing logging of flight
time for purposes of FAR 61.51, where you are keeping a record to
show recent flight experience or to show that you meet the
requirements for a higher rating. Your question does not say if
the second pilot in your example is fully qualified as a PIC, or
only as an SIC. This is important, because even though an SIC
can log PIC time, that pilot has not qualified to serve as a PIC
under Part 135.

An example of this difference is FAR 135.225(d), which raises IFR
landing minimums for pilots in command of turbine powered
airplanes flown under Part 135 who have not served at least 100
hours as PIC in that type of airplane. Served and logged are not
the same in this context, and no matter how the SIC logs his
time, he has not served as a PIC until he has completed the
training and check rides necessary for certification as a Part
135 PIC.

Approval for single pilot operations with use of an operative
approved autopilot system under FAR 135.105 gives an operator an
additional option in the conduct of operations. It does not
mandate that all future flights be conducted in that manner. The
operator can elect to fly trips with two pilots, as is otherwise
required for flight in IFR conditions under FAR 135.101, using
the second in command instead of the autopilot.

Your second question asks if, under the circumstances given
above, the SIC can log time as SIC when the designated pilot in
command is flying the aircraft. The answer is yes, as long as
the certificate holder is using the SIC as a crewmember instead
of exercising the autopilot authorization. In other words, the
certificate holder elects not to conduct an IFR flight using the
single pilot with a functioning autopilot option, but rather
conducts an IFR flight using two qualified pilots. The two
pilots are then "required by the regulations under which the
flight is conducted", FAR 61.51(c)(3), and the assumption is that
the second pilot (SIC) will function as a required crewmember,
and SIC time may validly be logged. However, if for some reason
another qualified pilot "rides along" and does not function as a
crewmember, then second-in-command time may not be validly
logged.

This interpretation has been prepared by Arthur E. Jacobson,
Staff Attorney, Operations Law Branch, Regulations and
Enforcement Division; Richard C. Beitel, Manager. It has been
coordinated with the Manager, Air Transportation Division, and
the Manager, General Aviation and Commercial Division, Flight
Standards Service.

We hope this satisfactorily answers your questions.

Sincerely,

/s/ Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division

 

[Rick1128]

The OpSpecs for single pilot is an exemption not a requirement. If the company elects to assign a f/o to the flight, the f/o may log what time he flew. The legal interpretations I have read on this have stated that when a company assigns a f/o to the flight they have made the airplane a two pilot aircraft for that flight. However, that f/o must meet all the requirements and have a current 135.293 (a) and (b). 135.297 and .299 rides are not required for f/o's under 135.

While a company may require an ATP to act as PIC under Part 135, it is not required except for passenger carrying jets. PICs on cargo Part 135 jets do not require an ATP.

 

[aroundtheblock]

Thanks all for the reponses. The reasoon I have doubts about letting the FO fly is that we have no SIC program on the King Air. Both the FO and I have passed single pilot PIC 293 and 297 checkrides. Only the PIC's were given 299 line checks. Nowhere on our 8410 does it say SIC, and nowhere were we trained or checked in as a crew. Our POI says they can not touch the controls, not even the radios, but I was wondering if that was golden or just his interpretation.

 

[aroundtheblock]

One other point to add. Our King Airs do not have CVR's, which are required under Part 135 for 2 pilots with an aircraft with 6 or more seats. So if I take a SIC, with a current 293 and 297, and the auto pilot breaks, is the airplane grounded because I can't have a SIC without a CVR? This question seems to go around in circles.

 

[mike1mc]

Sounds like the CVR is the real problem and we've all been rattiling of those **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** FARS for nothing.

Keep the blue side up,