Par

AngelKing

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I am a civilian who flys into military fields. My question is this. At what point during a PAR approach do you stop readback of instructions or do you readback everything? If/when you do stop readback, when do you start readback again?

AK
 

RedDogC130

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They will tell you when to stop further transmissions. Call the field in sight and they might stop.
 

TonyC

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AngelKing said:
I am a civilian who flys into military fields. My question is this. At what point during a PAR approach do you stop readback of instructions or do you readback everything? If/when you do stop readback, when do you start readback again?

AK
It's been a while since I've done one, so I might be a little off on the exact terminology, but this will answer your question. The controller will tell you exactly when to stop acknowledging transimissions, and the controller will tell you when to talk again.

As you are being vectored you should be given lost comm instructions. "If no transmissions heard in XX seconds, do such-and-such" You'll acknowledge that. Then he'll say something like, "Do not acknowledge further transmissions, turn right heading 123" You'll get heading corrections, and callouts about your position relative to the course centerline. For example, Heading 123, slightly left of course and correcting. turn left heading 121, on course. Etc.

As you approach the glidepath, you'll hear, "Approaching glide path." and maybe "check gear down" If you were military, you'd need to report "Gear down," and since the controller is used to hearing a "Gear down" call, he might even prompt you for it. (That's the topic of another thread already.:)) You should hear, "Begin descent" at which point you should begin descent at a rate that you think will maintain the published glidepath for your groundspeed. A good controller will lead the glidepath so you'll have a few seconds to transition from straight and level to the published glidepath. "Well Above glidepath and correcting," "Slightly below glidepath and holding", "Approaching glidepath" and "On glidepath" are just a few of the vertical calls you might hear, mixed in with the course corrections. When you get to the decision height or decision altitude, you should hear a call like, "At Decision Hieght, If runway or approach lights are not in sight, Execute published Missed Approach, Acknowledge." That's your cue to start talking again. You'll either say, "Boxcar 123 executing missed approach" or "Boxcar 123, runway in sight, thank you for the nice approach."



OK, so that was the long answer - - more than you asked for. Now for the Cliff's Notes:

Stop talking when the controller says, "Do not acknowledge further transmissions."

Start talking when the controller says, "Acknowledge."





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str8upflyrght

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i don't make any calls except for acknowledging landing clearance once i'm "on glideslope"
 

TankerDriver

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From AFMAN11-217v1:

14.3.3. Voice Procedures. The radar approach is predicated entirely upon voice instructions from the approach control or radar controller. Repeat all headings, altitudes (departing and assigned), and altimeter settings until the final controller advises "do not acknowledge further transmissions." During high-density radar operations, a limiting factor is the communication time available. Keep transmissions brief and specific, commensurate with safety of flight. Never sacrifice aircraft control to acknowledge receipt of instructions.
 
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Huggyu2

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A lot of pilots call "runway insight, proceeding visually": not recommended, since it gains you nothing. If you've ever shot an approach, gone visual, and then lost the runway due to low cloud/fog, you know what I mean. Let the controller give you guidance until DH (or lower). It costs you nothing.
 

AngelKing

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Thanks guys, I learned a lot reading all of your posts. Answered all of my questions, even some I hadn't thought of yet.


AK
 

ONEWAY

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What about "NO-Gyro" PAR's???

AK et al,

here's yet another PAR (or ASR) scenario....

If one has lost all hdg indications (total loss of elec pwr etc..), in many military aircraft, often all that one has left, are his turn needle and stby att gyro. So, in IMC conditions, one's pucker factor increases slightly..While this may seem far-fetched to some, due to the massively over-redundant technologies installed in today's modern fleet, the old equipment is still susceptible to such dire situations.

Anyway, one would request a "NO-GYRO" GCA (ground controlled approach -- either a PAR or an ASR) from ATC.. (of course, you'd be using your stby radio if available, or the famed PRC-90....And instead of flying particular hdgs, the GCA controller would simply say, "Make all turns standard rate until further advised.... TURN LEFT...STOP TURN..............Now make all turns half standard rate...TURN RIGHT....STOP TURN...etc." Again, you'd read back all instructions verbatim until told to stop doing so..

Hopefully, the GCA'er can lead you into VMC conditions to land saferly...
For those of us that teach flight school, this is a daily manuever. C'mon down to south texas and you'll hear us on the radio (if you have a UHF scanner!)

so long!
 

Fury220

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ONEWAY said:
AK et al,

here's yet another PAR (or ASR) scenario....

If one has lost all hdg indications (total loss of elec pwr etc..), in many military aircraft, often all that one has left, are his turn needle and stby att gyro. So, in IMC conditions, one's pucker factor increases slightly..While this may seem far-fetched to some, due to the massively over-redundant technologies installed in today's modern fleet, the old equipment is still susceptible to such dire situations.

Anyway, one would request a "NO-GYRO" GCA (ground controlled approach -- either a PAR or an ASR) from ATC.. (of course, you'd be using your stby radio if available, or the famed PRC-90....And instead of flying particular hdgs, the GCA controller would simply say, "Make all turns standard rate until further advised.... TURN LEFT...STOP TURN..............Now make all turns half standard rate...TURN RIGHT....STOP TURN...etc." Again, you'd read back all instructions verbatim until told to stop doing so..

Hopefully, the GCA'er can lead you into VMC conditions to land saferly...
For those of us that teach flight school, this is a daily manuever. C'mon down to south texas and you'll hear us on the radio (if you have a UHF scanner!)

so long!
Ah...the infamous "Right Gen Fail / No X-Over" EP in the venerable T-38A.

In the wx, a No-Gyro approach is required. In that case, the T-38A is also without flaps, the main ADI, and trim...in addition to the lost TACAN/ILS/HSI.

Why the HELL did they put all that stuff on the SAME GENERATOR? Duh.
 

TDK90

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PAR Controller

Wow..I get to post in the military forum! I was a military controller for 10 years (in the RAF) but the PAR GCA procedures are pretty much standard in NATO, it being the primary GCA recovery aid etc.

In the RAF when we got the airplane handed over fropm the radar director (usually about 8-10 miles converging niceley onto the centerline), it would paint in azimuth and elevation on your two separate tubes, you'd call contact at whatever range and the the director would transfer comms over to you with the flight strip showing the aircraft heading - "Contact xyz Talkdown Stud 6".

On initial contact you'd reply "Firebird 1, xyz Talkdown, identified 8 miles, left of centerline correcting niceley, do not acknowledge further instructions unless requested". From then on you'd provide heading adjustments normally in 2-5 degree intervals and try to put the guy on the centerline. Approaching the 3 degree (or 2.5 degree for the F4) glideslope, you'd give a warning about 1nm before intercept, and then as the return intercepts the glideslope "Begin descent now for 3 degree glidepath".

From then on it was heading adjustments and slightly above, on or slightly below glidepath, you don't provide pitch adjustments but just report the aircrafts position on the glidepath, occasionally if someone was going well below glidepath we'd ask for an acknowledgement "well below glidepath, acknowledge".

At 4.5 miles we'd ask for a gear check, once you have that, you intercom the tower controller for a clearance, "Firebird 1, 4 miles to land" and either get a clearance to land, continue the approach or breakoff with further instructions.

Approaching DH you give a warning and another one passing DH, after DH you we're supposed to continue azimuth instructions without heading info. just left or right 2 degrees, sometimes guys would call visual and sometimes guys would say,"keep talking"!

Aaah happy days as a young Flying Officer (Lieutenant)......Talkdown was generally the 1st endorsement you got as it was considered to be the easiest position, that said most of the aircrew thought it was the most important and you soon heard about it if you screwed one up!

On occasion, I used to let the Duty Aircrew Officer have a go at one (under supervision), that was fun, could get ugly though!
 
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Huggyu2

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Ahh,... a GCA from an RAF controller: those are the best in the world. You could be on fire, with no hydro, and the sound of a Brit giving a PAR would lower your blood pressure by 30 points.
TDK90, do you know/remember an RAF gal that gave GCA's at Wattisham back around '91 or '92? She had the most gorgeous voice. Was she as gorgeous in person??
Another thing I love is the "dirty talkdown" that the occassional RAF gal would give us in the Med.
 

TDK90

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Huggyu2 said:
Ahh,... a GCA from an RAF controller: those are the best in the world. You could be on fire, with no hydro, and the sound of a Brit giving a PAR would lower your blood pressure by 30 points.
TDK90, do you know/remember an RAF gal that gave GCA's at Wattisham back around '91 or '92? She had the most gorgeous voice. Was she as gorgeous in person??
Another thing I love is the "dirty talkdown" that the occassional RAF gal would give us in the Med.
Well now there's a coincidence..I was at RAF Wattisham from 90-93, it was my first tour after graduating from the ATC School at RAF Shawbury, we had 56 (Firebirds) and 74 (Tigers) squadrons. Both F4 outfits, 56 had the FGR2 and 74 had ex-USN F4-J which apparently was far superior, the 74 aircrew even got to wear USAF flightsuits, something to do with compatible safety equipment. They closed Wattisham in 93, the Army has it now I believe and flies Apaches out of it, I went off to bigger and better things at Eastern Radar....

We used to have a blast with the Bentwaters and Woodbridge A-10s, plus the Lakenheath + Heyford F1-11s, I always liked controlling USAF aircraft, they were generally far more polite and appreciative than the miserable RAF FJ crews! We always got a lot of trade from the USAF...I hope it stays that way...

We had 4 young WRAF officer controllers in that time period, one was married to an F4 pilot who sadly CFITted into the Med off Akrotiri a few years later. They were all pleasant in a WRAF sort of way, much nicer than some I've worked with, it was always fun for us to watch the face of horror of visiting aircrew who came up to the tower to meet the gal on the end of the radio only to find she was a heffer...you wouldn't have been the first to be fooled by a voice!!!
 

Huggyu2

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Small world! Remember Lynn Johnson? She ended up going on to be the team manager for the Red Arrows, and before that, I think she was doing something at Buckingham Palace.
I was at Alconbury from '90-'93. Lived in St Ives.
 

TDK90

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Very small world, I knew Lynn, she was at LATCC with me, she lived in the Mess at Uxbridge with the rest of us "singlies'. I think you're right, I seem to remember her being an Equerry to HRH Duke of York or something..Never went to ALC, visited Wyton once, I knew a lot of people there in the tower. I remember once in 87 when I was an enlisted type working at RAF Leeming in N.Yorks, we had a TR1 divert in because we had the only North South runway available, it was very cool for a 17 yr old to see that thing land + get chased down the runway by the Mustang with the detachable gear.
 

pilotyip

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donta toucha nothing

Now when shooting PAR's into NATO airfields where the final controller is a foreigner you may get some terminology that does not match the above. Like the one I got going into Milan, Italy, upon intercepting glideslope the controller said "you a looking good, don'ta toucha nothing" Of course I immedialtely took my hands and feet off the controls, only kidding
 
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