Pan Am Seminole Crash

[JB74]

Saw this posted on another board and wanted to post it here. Appears that ATC vectored (decended) them into a mountain.

Here is the preliminary report.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20040522X00629&key=1

 

[Mmmmmm Burritos]

It says they were in VMC and it was still daytime. The only way I can see that happening was if the vis was REALLY low and they were flying toward a setting sun (it states they were flying westbound). The report states the time was 1830, and the sun sets anywhere from 2015-2045 local now depending on where you are. If it was a bad ATC vector, they should have seen that mountain coming!

 

[flytheblue]

Don't they also have GPS in their Seminoles??

 

[JB74]

It says the flight originated at 1830, but the crash happened at 2100.

 

[Mmmmmm Burritos]

Ahhh makes more sense now.

 

[JB74]

I am not one to speculate, but the report says that they were both private pilots (probably splitting hood time). Maybe one of them had been under the hood and the other (safety) pilot not been looking outside?

Just hoping someone here had some insight as to what happened?

 

[Wiggums]

There were two aircraft with N numbers Nxx4PA. The controller issued a descent clearence using the short form for the N number, Seminole 4PA. The freq was congested, and by the time it was sorted out it was too late.

The pilots were both private multi-engine rated students at the school. As part of their training students go on some IFR XC flights in the Seminole to build up there multi and get the needed time for the comm. rating.

The aircraft had two GNS430s...not sure what that has to do with anything.

 

[Flyin Tony]

What do you guys think will happen to the ATC guy?

 

[azpilot]

I have flown over those hills lots of times and So Cal Approach has been really good with not making us descend to early. I am not saying this didn't happen in this case. At night I think I would have asked to stay high until well clear. You can get some really good downdrafts in that area as well. I wonder how fast their decent was and if they were really familar with their exact position. If there would two tail numbers that were similar wouldn't the controller point this out? Sad it happened.

 

[flytheblue]

The aircraft had two GNS430s...not sure what that has to do with anything

Kind of hard not to know where you are with 2 GNS 430s onboard...that's all.
I just figured that with GNS 430s in the plane, they would have known where they were, and at least questioned the clearance before descending.

 

[cynic]

Say, whats a mountain goat doing way up here in the clouds?

 

[Wiggums]

Kind of hard not to know where you are with 2 GNS 430s onboard...that's all.
I just figured that with GNS 430s in the plane, they would have known where they were, and at least questioned the clearance before descending.

Sure, with a GNS430 you can locate you position within 100 feet. But now you know that, what are you going to do with the information? Sure, you could check the MORA or MEA, but ATC will descend you below those alts all time based on MVAs. So what do you do, plot your position on a sectional, and draw your course in for every descent? We don't carry any sectionals in our aircraft, and their would be no requirement on that flight that they had them.

ATCs primary job when you are operating IFR is to keep you from hitting other airplanes and the ground. In the real world if ATC asks you to descend then you come down. It's not realiastic for everyone to question each descent or ask what the MVA for their position is.

It's hard to fault the pilots in this one, it's going to go down to ATC, inexperience (everyone starts with zero hours), and bad luck.

 

[Bluto]

"It's hard to fault the pilots in this one, it's going to go down to ATC, inexperience (everyone starts with zero hours), and bad luck."

I agree somewhat. HOWEVER, terrain awareness is a crucial aspect of IFR and night flying. Obviously, ATC should have done a better job. ATC directions should never take the place of position and terrain awareness.

 

[wmudriver]

Sounds like there are a lot of factors involved in this accident. With 2 pilots, 2 gps, some charts and VMC; it would be hard to to not know where you are. Then you can throw in pilot inexperience, ATC problems and loss of situational awarness. We can all speculate but hindsight is 20/20.

Thats too bad for those folks involved. Thats 5 people lost in training accidents within a matter of days as another PA-44 crashed on 5/13/04.

Fly safe!