Pan Am Academy reputation?

[trash480]

I live in the Phoenix area and have been investigating flight schools with the goal of getting a job with a regional as soon as possible. I have pretty much narrowed it down between Pan Am at Deer Valley Airport and the Mesa Pilot Development in Farmington. I hear good things about the quality of the Mesa program, but I would have to relocate and it would take almost 19 months, but it is less money. Pan Am is shorter (12-14 months) and I wouldn't have to relocate, which is a big plus for me. They also said that the new CRJ FTD that Mesa is getting does not have FMS and theirs does, plus the actual Mesa training planes don't have GPS. Also, I wouldn't have to get directly stuck in all of the Freedom Airlines controversy if I went with Pan Am since they seem to have a broader relationship with other regionals besides Mesa.

If you want to comment about the pros and cons of both, fine. But what I haven't heard and really need is what Pan Am's reputation is in the industry--can anyone shed some unbiased light on this?

 

[Av8trxx]

One persons experience

It's been a few weeks since you posted, but I got this in my listserve Email this morning from a Pan Am student to another who was shafted by ATA:

"I just wanted to say that I am currently a student at the Pan Am Academy and I, too, gave them all my money up front for some time building and my CFI. Unfortunately, I am not happy with my training at Pan Am and I would not recommend it. They make a lot of promises that they don't keep, including their promise to hire you as an instructor and their great hiring rate with the regionals. Many of the instructors at this campus have been here for over 2 years, and are still waiting for their "promised interview". This company seems only motivated by financial gain, and not concerned with their student's best intrest. It definately sounds better than it is. I recommend finding a better way to build time. I know I'll be looking for something else as soon as possible.
Good Luck,"

XXXX XXXXX (name removed)

 

[bobbysamd]

Mesa

Originally posted by trash480
I hear good things about the quality of the Mesa program, but I would have to relocate and it would take almost 19 months, but it is less moneyPan Am is shorter (12-14 months) and I wouldn't have to relocate, which is a big plus for me.

I was an MAPD instructor ten years ago. Although Mesa might take longer, the interview promise is no smoke. I wasn't there long but I saw it work. I had students who went on to the interivew and jobs with Mesa.

Doesn't Mesa have a new tie-in with A.S.U.? If so, you will not have to relocate.

They also said that the new CRJ FTD that Mesa is getting does not have FMS and theirs does, plus the actual Mesa training planes don't have GPS.

That's a red herring. So what?? When you are training you should be learning and using traditional navigation. Navigation is a basic skill. You'll have plenty of time to learn GPS later. Same for the FMS, for the same reason.

Also, I wouldn't have to get directly stuck in all of the Freedom Airlines controversy if I went with Pan Am since they seem to have a broader relationship with other regionals besides Mesa.

That is a point to consider and worthy of investigation. I had the same reaction. However, I've read here that MAPD grads have the choice of going to Freedom sooner or regular Mesa later. Apparently students are not being cornholed into Freedom.

I have no firsthand knowlege of Pan Am, but the negative comments I've read are compelling. I do have firsthand knowlege of Mesa. Mesa certainly is not flight training heaven, but it offers potential.

Good luck with your choice.

 

[100LL... Again!]

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I live in the Phoenix area and have been investigating flight schools with the goal of getting a job with a regional as soon as possible.
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Is that really your goal?

This type of statement always bothers me. Why don't we ever hear this:

"I am investigating flight schools right now. My goal is to become a safe, knowledgeable, and proficient pilot. After I spend some time building up my skills and credentials, I would like to EVENTUALLY fly for a regional airline."


Please do not take this wrong - I am not flaming you.
But your post makes it sound like you aim to be a "fast-tracker".

There are may pilots with thousands of hours competing for these regional jobs.

The goal should be to become worthy of the job, then to get the job. Three to four years ago any moron with 1000 and 100 was getting a regional job. THANKFULLY we are back to some reasonable timetable.

 

[dondk]

The goal should be to become worthy of the job, then to get the job. Three to four years ago any moron with 1000 and 100 was getting a regional job. THANKFULLY we are back to some reasonable timetable.

While I agree with most of his post.. I dsagree with this comment...

We have ALL been in a class, or in OP's, or in the seat next to the person and wondered (not outloud mind you).. HOW the $%^&* did this person get hired!

It is not the time that makes the person, it is the person! I have seen many good and decent 1000/100 pilots and some with lower times. I have also seen some jacka$$ 2-3000 hour pilots who just have not grown up yet.

Regardless, I do agree it has the familiar "ring" to fast-track to a regional and even more of the familiar ring with the whine of.. I want a RJ


Props were good for me and to me.. and most of the people who are on the board. Just because there is FMS and GPS.. so what!!! What do you do when they are defferred?

Learn to fly BEFORE you learn to manage!

 

[trash480]

Thanks for responding. What negative comments regarding Pan Am are you referring to? I thought I would get a lot more posts on this than I have--yours is one of the few. From what I hear MAPD probably does have a better program, but the big factor in favor of PanAm for me was that I would have to relocate for a year and half plus they supposed have relationships with a larger number of regionals. Furthermore, if Mesa isn't hiring when I graduate, or if the student is a good pilot but just doesn't fit their mold, what do I do since I they don't provide the CFI training so I can instruct until something opens up. Regarding the FMS, I heard that is probably the most crucial instrument in the CRJ FTD since it controls so much, and that Mesa does not have that in their new FTD. It is not a deal breaker, but I wonder why Mesa doesn't include it in their training since that is what is in the real jets? That is good to know about Mesa not forcing pilots into Freedom, but I have read some posts about disillusioned graduating students who still feel the pressure and valid concern about declining an offer from Freedom.

 

[bobbysamd]

"Basic" flight training

FMS had not descended to the grass roots of flight training where I was ten years ago. I cannot speak for Mesa about why it wouldn't include the training. Just my gut reaction is that all pilots should have basic nav down thoroughly so that FMS augments their basic abilities. I had a couple of students ten years ago who sneaked aboard the then-rudimentary GPS handhelds. I told them to turn it off. I felt that it was bad training to develop a reliance on whiz-bang machinery early in training instead of basic pilotage and ded reckoning.

As to the Mesa hiring question, MAPD students are scrutinized closely from Day One. The bad actors are identified quickly. So are the good actors. Going to "the interview" from MAPD is, in and of itself, a very strong recommendation. I remember a particular problem type I had when I worked there. The Chief Instructor finally decided not to recommend this fellow for "the interview." He basically said it would embarass the school to send such a graduate to corporate. So, if you get "the interview," your chances are good that you'll get hired. It has been determined that you are the right kind of candidate.

Finally, a con to a school like Mesa is you might not go to class immediately after the interview. You might be placed in a hiring pool. Nothing wrong with that as long as you can keep flying. Otherwise, the skills that you honed to a fine edge during traiing could erode and might not return to the same level. Which means you might have to get your CFI someplace so you can be flying. MAPD does not offer a CFI program because that's not its purpose. That is something you must consider.

Once more, hope these comments help. Good luck with your choice of schools.

 

[expendableone]

Comments on Pan Am, go to Jetcareers.com in the discussions section they have enough there that shall keep you busy for a few months. Then when you are done, you feel as though you have saved $50k without even starting.

 

[Kream926]

if you live in arizona i would highly recomend you check out soartan in tulsa. i am there right now and i can not be more than satisfied. they gave me no B.S promises like the others do and im pretty sure they wont go out of business. sureit is longer than most of the other schools. its gonna take me 3 years from zero time all the way to MEI (ppl, ir,comm, cfi,cfii, mer, mei) along with an associate degree. the instructors are top notch bith in the air and in the ground. the maintenance crew cannot be any better. i have only found really really minor problems with airplanes like low air in the nose strut or a nav light out. there are 2 disadvantages though (i think only 1) they use a 152 are their primary trainer for ppl and some instrument, i think only 4 152 are instrument certified but i like em, a SEL is a SEL is a SEL. about 8 1999 172's i think R's, 5 172 Rg's for complex and 3 seminoles and a king air 90. theres no up fron coast so you can kinda "pay as you go" type of deal and i was quoted 52,000 but im expecting to drop about 65. most of they instructors there are graduates and as long as you do your work and not slack off ( and never have to call tower on a land line) your chances are good for working there.
their web site kinda sucks spartan.edu but if you need to know any thing or if someone does feel free to drop me a line [email protected]

 

[Futura]

The goal should be to become worthy of the job, then to get the job. Three to four years ago any moron with 1000 and 100 was getting a regional job. THANKFULLY we are back to some reasonable timetable.

First of all, if you are not worthy of the job you probably will not get the job. Unless you have someone on the inside or you are applying for the CEO position.

I would bet that if you had the opportunity for a legitimate fast track to your dream job you wouldn't turn it down based on principle. I don't see anything wrong with taking every legitimate opportunity to minimze the time spent at the starving wage levels.
If you would just open your eyes and drop the attitude you might be able to see that many of the senior capts that have/are retiring from the mid 90's to the mid 00's were hired directly to their first major airline job with a private certificate, maybe a commercial at the most due to the pilot shortage in the mid 60's. (and the training back then wasn't nearly as advanced as most big pt141 flight schools are today)

Don't give this guy attitude for pursuing a path that is available to anyone who chooses to try. Its one thing to get hired because daddy is the chief pilot. Its quite another to succeed at a fasttrack program because you have what it takes to do the job with less time. How many hours do our military defenders of freedom have when they first become responsible for a mega-million dollar high performance aircraft? Not nearly as much as some of those "low-timers" that "thankfully" aren't getting regional jobs any more. Some people can be qualified to do the job without that old school "paying your dues" crap.

It can go both ways. I've been told I was "lucky" to get hired at a major as a 4000 hr. RJ Cpt. since there were guys who had 10,000 plus hours as 72 freight dog FO's who were "more deserving". There are guys out there who think you haven't paid your dues if you didn't fly Convairs without autopilots shooting NDB approaches and 50 billion leg days. Those guys flew with captains who thought they were soft because they didn't fly the old radial DC-3's before air traffic control............and it just goes on and on.

Get over it. If you got the job without daddy's help or crossing a picket line then you deserve to be there.

 

[trash480]

Thanks for the reply. Let me state that I am not trying to "short cut" the process and am a very competent pilot for the low hours I have. What I am trying to do is to find a path that is not a "pipe dream" but has a real chance of getting a flying job when I finish. I know that there are lots of ways to build hours and ratings, but since I don't have any connections or a lot of money, I want a school that will strengthen my chances of making my transition from a decent paying career to a pilot job as painlessly as possible. I consider this just doing my homework and due diligence given my circumstances as there are many schools out there that are desperate for students and will tell them just about anything to get them to enroll. I don't want to be one of them that ends up disillusioned with $60K in debt and very few chances of getting a pilot job and struggling just to get by.

 

[dondk]

Trash480

You sound like you have the right attitude... With that...

Any school will do, from the local FBO to these slick 141 mills, to the college courses with a flight school attached.

In short.. at the completion of your commercial you are basically the SAME as every othe commercial pilot with 225-250 hours of time. Maybe those ATP guys have a argument with most of thiers being ME though.

The same is true for those with 500 hrs.. they are all about EQUAL. The differences are after that time frame and how and where you get your time... Is it all burning holes in the sky in a 152 trying not to have that student try to kill you to flying the canyon to banners to pipeline or whatever.

There is no guaranteed or even "suggested" way to get a job. Most of getting a job and making ends meet is being at the right time at the right place, or having made that "connection" years ago, or through networking you way into that first, second or even "dream" job.

 

[airwinger]

pan am

Trash480,

I too live in Phoenix and thought the same thing. Do not go to Pan AM unless you want to lose 70 grand. Yes that is the average. Out of a new class in 2001 of 20 people only about 6 are still there. They took the max loan amount and after doing the ace program all of them had to get other loans for their flight instructor certificates. The reason is, Pan Am fails you on one little minor thing on a stage check,and no it not because of breaking a FAR. That is the way they make more money. The ad that they place in the magazine is BS because not one person who has graduated from ace has went to an airline yet! I am not disgruntled, I just dont want to see anyone lose money like I did. I work at mesa as a ramper and nearly all the fo's and captains are from san juan. I will be graduating from Embry Riddle in April and hope to be going to their PACE program. Any more questions PM me

 

[Snakum]

If you got the job without daddy's help or crossing a picket line then you deserve to be there.

A voice of reason from the wilderness.

Minh

 

[Wiggums]

Re: pan am

The ad that they place in the magazine is BS because not one person who has graduated from ace has went to an airline yet!

I wouldn't recommend going there, but let's not make untrue statements.

 

[airwinger]

I dont believe it is untrue. I was there for 8 months and my friends have been there another five months, and they confirm this

 

[Flymach2]

I dont believe it is untrue. I was there for 8 months and my friends have been there another five months, and they confirm this

Hi...

8 months at Pan Am and only a Comm. ASEL? I think the problem lies elsewhere...not in the program.

Regards

 

[Wiggums]

I dont believe it is untrue. I was there for 8 months and my friends have been there another five months, and they confirm this

Well, if your talking about the Phoenix campus you are mistaken. A couple people have gone to the airlines that took the ACE program, even more if you count Airnet as an airline. In fact, another ACE grad today found out that he'd been hired by an airline. I'm not trying to recommend Pan Am or pick a fight, but am trying to correct untrue information.