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Padding the book

Secret Agent

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If you had a "friend" who completely padded his/her logbook (to the tune of about 1,000 PIC time, night, and actual IFR) and was offered a job, would you do anything about it?

This clown really has about 500 TT verifiable by me and his/her previous instructor. Yes, I may be a little bit bitter since I am currently furloughed from my flying job AND that it took me over 15 years to get to where I am...

Thoughts?

BTW, we're not talking about a piston job or an instructing job.
 
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pilotyip

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talking about padding a pilot personal log book?
 

wrxpilot

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Unfortunately I know two bozo's that do this, one of whom openly admitted to me about doing it. Actually it was more like bragged about it, and he said I was "stupid" for not doing it. He then said he would show me how to add parker pen time to my logbook, as it was "really easy". He just didn't understand why I didn't want any of that crap in my logbook. As you might've guessed, he really sucks as a pilot, and his padded time was pretty obvious.

Idiots like this will eventually get caught due to their own stupidity... When it came to the guy I referenced above, I just did my best to stay away from him. The last thing I wanted was to get involved in their illegal activities. At least he's currently laid off from his flying job for now...
 

Coool Hand Luke

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You could always take the Tail #'s and cross references them to www.flightaware.com

I'd say something likes this: "Hey, I see you flew N1234AB from XYC to ABC on 11/01/09. Can you tell me why on Flight Aware it shows N1234AB flying from DEF to HIJ on that date?"

I think the Flight Aware data goes back several years if you pay for it.
 

Tristar

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You could always take the Tail #'s and cross references them to www.flightaware.com

I'd say something likes this: "Hey, I see you flew N1234AB from XYC to ABC on 11/01/09. Can you tell me why on Flight Aware it shows N1234AB flying from DEF to HIJ on that date?"

I think the Flight Aware data goes back several years if you pay for it.

The classic example of this being the idiot who sat at the local airport, writing tail numbers into his logbook.

This was all well and good until he had a checkride with an examiner who wanted to know, in essence, what the hell he (the applicant) was doing flying the examiner's aircraft without permission!

That said, this industry is too full of a$$ holes and pretenders who haven't earned the right to occupy the seat they are sitting in. Blow the whistle and raise the bar if you can indeed support your allegations.
 

JAFI

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1-866-TELL-FAA (1-866-835-5322)


61.59 Falsification, reproduction, or alteration of applications, certificates, logbooks, reports, or records.
(a) No person may make or cause to be made:

(2) Any fraudulent or intentionally false entry in any logbook, record, or report that is required to be kept, made, or used to show compliance with any requirement for the issuance or exercise of the privileges of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part;

(4) Any alteration of any certificate, rating, or authorization under this part.
(b) The commission of an act prohibited under paragraph (a) of this section is a basis for suspending or revoking any airman certificate, rating, or authorization held by that person.
 

avbug

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You could always take the Tail #'s and cross references them to www.flightaware.com

Not everything shows up on flightaware, by a long shot. I've looked up aircraft I just flew across the country, and flightaware says the airplane has been sitting somewhere for two months. Further, it won't show VFR flights.

It also won't show blocked flights.

As far as falsifying one's log, there's little doubt that a lot of pilots out there have done exactly that. I worked with an assistant chief pilot years ago who is now flying for an airline somewhere, having jumped rapidly from single Cessnas to corporate aircraft and then to an airline...who falsified most of his time. In fact, one day I happened into an FBO and found a picture of him on a wall as a solo student...taken only a year before he got his job as the assistant chief pilot for a particular operation. He was a con artist. I have no idea where he is today, but I also have no illusions about the fact that many pilots do the same thing.

When I completed my ATP checkride, the examiner told me that the next step would be to falsify a lot of multi time and go get that first multi job. This was an examiner, mind you. He then went on to say that if I had a conscience crisis about it, I could always simply not log time later on. I elected to ignore his counsel.

Not long ago I was asked to fly with a young man as an evaluation, prior to his Part 135 checkride with the FAA. Before we ever made it to the airplane, numerous red flags were raised. The flight confirmed what I thought. He was lying about his experience. I examined his resume and found inconsistencies, then interviewed him and found more. He began changing his story. Contact was made with former "employers" who had never heard of him, and soon he changed the names on the resume to "downgrade" his experience to something we might not check. We did. He was lying.

I've always maintained that I will know most of what I need to know about an aviator before we ever make it to the airplane. The flight only confirms it.

You'll find more than a few who foolishly falisfy their log, and you'll find more than a few operators too slow or too dense to catch it. A descent one will, because it shows. You can log hours, but can't invent or falsify experience. Hours are superficial, experience is not.

Nobody can tell you what to do. If your signature is in his logbook, however, you are in a position of being dragged into his mess if he screws up. I've been there...my signature was the last one before a pilot stacked up an airplane, and the owners, attorneys and the rest of the free world came to camp on my door step. In my case I had very good records which showed I had no culpability in the matter and had not failed to train or inform the student (a certificated pilot), and the dogs at the door moved on. In your case, who knows? Wouldn't you be better off washing your hands of the lying, cheating, falsifying student by either going to him directly and requesting he destroy the book, or taking it to the next level and reporting him?

Bear in mind that while the noble thing may be going directly to the student, this is not a requirement in your position. If the student has knowingly, intentionally, and willfully falsified his logbook, there's nothing inadvertent here. It's not like you're tactfully whispering to the student that he's made a mistake. He's committed a crime, and one of the building blocks to getting there is your signature; he's invoking your good name in his crime. If he later fails and hurts someone or damages property, or takes a life, now your good name is part of his disaster. Do you really want that?
 

semperfido

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I pretty much agree with avbug, but to answer your question, "should I do anything about it?"

I can't say what you should or shouldn't do. I most probably would tend to my own garden and focus on my own career and not someone elses.
 

Tristar

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That's what I would have said for many years, but I've come to the opinion that these tools DO have an impact on honest peoples careers. Now I'm more of the thinking of the famous quote:

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
 

pilotyip

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Then again there is one of the three famous lies, "The check is in the mail", "I am only stopping for one beer" and "There are no false entries in my logbook". Things such as logging night landing 58 minures after sunset, an instrurtment approach without a view limiting device, or PIC time when acting as a co-captain and the other guy was monitering the autopilot.
 

Tired Soul

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If you had a "friend" who completely padded his/her logbook (to the tune of about 1,000 PIC time, night, and actual IFR) and was offered a job, would you do anything about it?

Yes, notify the friendly POI of the company that has offered him/her the job.
 

Amish RakeFight

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I'd dime on this guy. It's almost your duty. Seriously. It's a slap in the face for those who worked hard acquiring their time.
 

Erlanger

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If you had a "friend" who completely padded his/her logbook (to the tune of about 1,000 PIC time, night, and actual IFR) and was offered a job, would you do anything about it?

This clown really has about 500 TT verifiable by me and his/her previous instructor. Yes, I may be a little bit bitter since I am currently furloughed from my flying job AND that it took me over 15 years to get to where I am...

Thoughts?

BTW, we're not talking about a piston job or an instructing job.

I think you should turn him into the local FSDO and contact his employer. You should beable to be anonymous. Seriously. We don't need people like this. We already have experienced pilots screwing things up. We don't need his BSing, his attitude and inexperience to cause something to happen that causes new rules and regs and makes our job harder to do.
 

ackattacker

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It is a tricky situation. In the past I have been aware of some of this kind of thing going on and pretty much figured it's none of my business.

Now I'm a little more wary. These guys have no business in aviation. Dishonesty of that nature carries over into other aspects of life and career. And other peoples *lives* are on the line.

It sucks, but I say turn him in.
 

Guitar rocker

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I know someone that did the same thing....hes a cptn now for a major airline. Everyone knew that he did it. There were others that did the same thing at this commuter that I worked at...and they all got away with it. It wasnt right either. As avbug mentioned, you might not be able to dis-prove his flying time from flight aware. If you know that you can not disprove it as a fact, as someone else said, Id tend to my own garden.
 

dondk

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everyone knows at least one that has done this, everyone knows a handful of others they suspect. If they can get away with it, oh well, but we also know those who have done it and gotten caught.

It is up to that person if it is worth it. Better yet, if you are going to "pad" you might as well make it worth it. Padding 100 hours is nothing, padding 1,000 or more, well that is a different story. For those that pad 1000 or more, well, they are probably crappy pilots and need to do it!

Would I dime him out? I would give him/her the chance to make it right first, then base your decision on his reaction.

My own personal side to this... 15 years ago I was turned over to the FAA for ONE questionable entry in my logbook. My situation was simple, I did that AOPA mentor pilot thingy and my mentor took me up. No dual, no PIC just a simple flight. My overzealous instructor saw the entry, questioned it, and chose not to discuss it but send me and my pilot mentor to the FAA. In the end, my entry found to be legal, but I made sure that instructor knew it, I let everyone know the type of person he was. That included his boss, who canned him for concerns of judgment. To this day I have not forgotten his name, if you are going to roll over on the person, make sure you got your facts straight. Having it backfire on you may not be worth the price in the end.
 

DX Rick

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My own personal side to this... 15 years ago I was turned over to the FAA for ONE questionable entry in my logbook. My situation was simple, I did that AOPA mentor pilot thingy and my mentor took me up. No dual, no PIC just a simple flight. My overzealous instructor saw the entry, questioned it, and chose not to discuss it but send me and my pilot mentor to the FAA. In the end, my entry found to be legal, but I made sure that instructor knew it, I let everyone know the type of person he was. That included his boss, who canned him for concerns of judgment. To this day I have not forgotten his name, if you are going to roll over on the person, make sure you got your facts straight. Having it backfire on you may not be worth the price in the end.
Wow, what a prick!
I know a guy who frequents this message board, he went from 300TT to 900TT in the matter of 2-3 weeks. He was trying to get hired from the inside to a regional carrier that is now defunked. Before he could get into a class, he was fired for hacking into the airline Presidents email and spreading his emails across FI.com.
He had a friend in Hawaii who let him use his Aztek for free, and the friend also paid for the gas.
The guy now flies for PCL.
 

Tired Soul

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Use to know a character who would log sitting in the backseat of a Multi.
Didn't help that the Chief Flight Instructor told his that it was OK to get his 50 ME this way to start instructing on it.
Told him he was an @ss but he was my roomy at the time.
Impossible to prove unless you subpoena the records of the school.
if you are going to roll over on the person, make sure you got your facts straight

Absolutely.
 

Flightdawg

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Then again there is one of the three famous lies, "The check is in the mail", "I am only stopping for one beer" and "There are no false entries in my logbook". Things such as logging night landing 58 minures after sunset, an instrurtment approach without a view limiting device, or PIC time when acting as a co-captain and the other guy was monitering the autopilot.

There's a difference between a dubious entry such as 58 minutes after sunset and flat out lying about flying at all. Sure, was it 0.3 of IMC or 0.4? We've all had to make that call and many may have given themselves the benefit of the doubt. It's another thing to log instrument time without the benefit of an airplane or from the backseat.

Dropping a dime on this guy is a judgment call. Whether or not it does any good is up to the FAA. They're short-handed and don't have time to investigate pilots unless some hard documentation is provided in the complaint.

Two things to keep in mind are:

1. New hire pilots are usually on probation. A call to the Chief Pilot may cause them to review the pilot with a little more detail than normal.

2. Falsified logbooks, especially those padded as thickly as the one described, have the disadvantage of showing a pilot with flying skills subpar for their amount of logged flight experience. It doesn't take long for an airline instructor, airline captain or aircraft commander to recognize the skill and experience level of the pilot with whom they are paired without taking a peek at their log book.
 
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