PACE airline??

[KE093]

Couple days ago at MLB Melboune, FL, I saw a 732 with 'PACE' on it. It was American registered aircraft(N number), and it's been sitting on the ramp for last couple days ever since I saw it. Does anyone know what kind of airline is this and where they fly to?

 

[flx757]

PACE is a supplemental 121 carrier that does various contracts. They do the Hooters Air flights (assuming they are still operating), as well as vacation charters for operators such as Vacation Express. They operate 737s and 757s. The company is headquartered in Winston-Salem, NC., but the aircraft are based all over, depending upon the contract they are on. And as all contract based supplemental carriers, aircraft, contracts, pilots and domiciles come and go.

 

[KE093]

Thank you for your reply. However, I have no clue what 121 carriers are. My FAR AIM simply doesn't include part 121. Can someone please explain briefly? Thanks in advance.

 

[flx757]

121 refers to the part of the Code of Federal Regulations that apply to air carriers, and can be either domestic, flag, or supplemental.

You can find additional information on the CFR on the FAA website.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14tab_02.tpl

Here is a link to Title 14, which is Aeronautics and Space. Once on that page, you can click on the link to take you to Part 121.

 

[logolight]

757flx. I see in your profile that you're an MD-80 instructor. Is it true that the MD-80 is tricky to land in a cross wind? That's the story I've heard.

 

[flx757]

I don't find it that tricky at all. We routinely train to crosswinds of 30kts, and the aircraft is approved for autoland, since it has a full authority 3-axis autopilot, so we can use it not only for the autoland, but for the rollout, as well...(among the other system redundancies required for autoland). It it were that tricky, I don't think the autoland would be certified. I think there is a crosswind limit for autoland, but I don't have the book in front of me, so I couldn't say (yeah, I know...I'm an instructor, so I should know anyway, and I think I do, but I don't want to put it down here for all to see just in case I am wrong )...but I wouldn't think it was any less than the other autoland aircraft I have flown (737, 757, A320, 717).

In other words, no...I don't think it is that tricky to land in a crosswind.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

10knots cross wind for autoland is the max.

I find the MD80 is more challenging when it is very heavy. It requires more power for landing and often you find yourself at about maximum aft trim. So if you pull the power back in the flare, it will most likely be a firm landing. Keep a little power in, flare and release a little back pressure (a slight push forward) and results are much better.

This is technique and opinion only. Whatever works best for you is fine.

 

[bafanguy]

MD80 autoland X-wind limit is 15 kts. The airplane usually takes a good bit of ANU trim for landing...and it really doesn't like getting too slow...ref + 5 is a simulator manuver !!

 

[flx757]

I agree that ref+5 is a sim maneuver (although don't let the higher ups hear me say that.... ). I don't usually fly slower than +10 (except on rare occasions). I tend to land flat and carry the power to the last second. Sort of "fly" it on. I'm not a fan of the "pushing forward" technique that I have seen some guys try. I've seen way more guys screw that up than do it correctly. But, like Jeff says, whatever "technique" works for you.


Thanks bafanguy for the autoland limit. That's what I thought, but my books usually stay on the shelf at work...this is the weekend, ya know. I could have had the "book" answer by Mon, but thanks for putting it out there. Now, I don't have to look it up....

 

[bafanguy]

flw757,

Yeah, I've heard that "push forward" thing in the DC9, MD80, B727 but never saw any advantage over landing it like any other airplane. Guys used to say the 727 was hard to land...never thought that myself.

As for the MD80, when you saw that you had +10 units ANU trim or more nearing the flare, you better not get slow unless you were willing to stand in the door during deplaning and listen to 142 smart remarks !! Never happened to ME, of course.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

10 knot X-wind was a former company limit.

I always thought the limit was 10knots, but that must have been a company thing.

I had alway thought the generators were limited to 40 KVA, but after having flown the MD80/DC9 at other companies discovered the generators are rated to 65 KVA. TWA had derated them to 40 KVA to reduce wear.

The current company does not use autoland and we only shoot CAT I approaches. In a previous life, the CAT IIIa was pretty cool!

 

[flx757]

Yeah...I know what you mean. I've seen it near (or at) the stop (+12)....of course, there's no such thing as a "flare" in that situation...you just keep it flying and the ground will find YOU...


Anyway, back to the origianal thread. I hope I gave a little info on who PACE is and where you can find info on Part 121. And to the other guy who asked...no, I don't find the MD-80 to be all that much more challenging to land in a crosswind than other tansport jets (and certainly not a Metroliner... )

 

[flx757]

Now that I'm back at work and can pull my book off the shelf , our autoland crosswind limit is 10kts.

OK..NOW back to the original thread subject....

 

[bafanguy]

flx757,

That's a puzzler about the autoland Xwind limit. Delta's POM says HX 25, XW 15, TW 10 as a certificate limit of the airplane. I thought maybe Ops Specs entered into this but that's not it either. For both Cat 2 & 3, our Ops Specs say: "To initiate the approach, the crosswind component on the landing runway must be less than the Aircraft Operating Manual (HGS, autoland,...) crosswind limitation, or 15 knots or less, whichever is more restrictive." Different strokes...I guess. My manuals are out of date by nine months now, but I wouldn't think certificate limits would change. Couldn't tell you which model DFGS we've got...maybe that's the difference.

 

[flx757]

bafanguy,

Yeah...couldn't say for sure, either. Our procedures are changing as we speak, but for now, I looked up the "Monitored Approach Review Card" in the QRH, and the section of the Flight Handbook which references Ops Spec C060, which says...."reported crosswind component on the landing runway is less than 10 kts". Now, the Monitored Approach Review Card, under "General Procedures" says "10.) Observe a 10-knot maximum crosswind component".

So, which is it....10-knots maximum, as stated on the Monitored Approach Card in the QRH or "less than 10 kts" as stated in the Flight Handbook, which references chapter C060 of the Ops Specs? A small point, to be sure, but they do seem to contradict each other. Literally taken, one says 10 kts is ok, one says it must be "less than" 10 knots. Curious to see what the powers that be say. I'll run up to the "big office" and ask the Fleet Captain what his opinion is.....be right back...

OK...the wording in the Flight Handbook is being revised to eliminate the "less than" reference. In the Limitations section of the Flight Handbook, directly from the AFM under "Autoland" it says:

"The autoland system is limited to the following wind conditions:
- Headwinds to 25 kts.
- Tailwinds to 10 kts
- Maximum Crosswind Component 15 kts
- For all actual LWMP (Low Weather Minimums Procedures) CatII/IIIa operations, the maximum crosswind component on the landing runway is 10 kts (ASA)."

So, the Autoland system is certified in the AFM for 15 kts crosswind, but Alaska limits the actual use of autoland under Cat II or IIIa to 10 kts.

Hope this clears up any confusion...it's just that some operators have chosen to limit the crosswind component further than that which is limited by the AFM.

NOW...if there are any more questions regarding PACE...

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Pace and 10knots, baby!

I knew 10 knots was the limitation.....for company....former company!

Pace has some B757 that used ot be National birds. I see them in CUN sometimes.

Jeff