Overall state of the Corporate aviation industry

[Flyby1206]

With all the drastic reductions on the 121 side of the industry, how is the Corp side doing? Has the economy affected the number of jobs? Are corp depts reducing fleet sizes?

 

[Shag McNasty]

With all the drastic reductions on the 121 side of the industry, how is the Corp side doing? Has the economy affected the number of jobs? Are corp depts reducing fleet sizes?

I don't think the pain has filtered down to the corp side yet, but it will. When more companies start reporting big losses, flight departments will feel it.

 

[BoilerUP]

Yes, there are departments that have downsized or folded altogether...and likely there will be more in the future.

That said, I strongly believe my job is secure...our airplane is used 90%+ for non-discretionary company business in locations either not served at all by airlines or not served in a way convenient to our firm. Despite this, I'll never be so cocky as to think I'm immune to a strong downturn in the economy or an even sharper rise in fuel prices - no pilot is.

Having come from a regional airline to corporate, there is one DISTINCT difference between the two segments in my eyes: on one side you are a liability to the company, while on the other you are an asset. Sure an airplane is expensive, and with fuel being $9/gal+ in some parts of the country its only getting more expensive...but that cost buys time and saves hassle, both of which are well worth the cost to those writing the checks.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I don't think the pain has filtered down to the corp side yet, but it will. When more companies start reporting big losses, flight departments will feel it.

When companies START reporting big losses?

How about the last 12-24 months?

Companies wont stop traveling. They have to to stay competitive, and most of the money is being made overseas these days.

An all domestic operation? I can see a chance for possible cutbacks....but International? - there is a real reason long range corp aircraft are backordered 4+ years right now and selling at 10mil+ premiums.

Its aviation - nothing is "stable"...but the airlines and their reliable, friendly service have long ago tanked that idea that the corporate jet is a "luxury" that is first to go in slow times.

While expansion has slowed among the industry, hiring certainly is still pretty strong in corporate and fractional.

 

[SCT]

At JET the other day in TEB, you could not have stuffed another, Gstream, Global, Challenger, etc onto the ramp....it seemed to be business as usual. I think the 135s and smaller class jets might be cutting back, though. If anything the airline mess has strengthened some flight departments in my opinion.

 

[Shag McNasty]

When companies START reporting big losses?

How about the last 12-24 months?

Companies wont stop traveling. They have to to stay competitive, and most of the money is being made overseas these days.

An all domestic operation? I can see a chance for possible cutbacks....but International? - there is a real reason long range corp aircraft are backordered 4+ years right now and selling at 10mil+ premiums.

Its aviation - nothing is "stable"...but the airlines and their reliable, friendly service have long ago tanked that idea that the corporate jet is a "luxury" that is first to go in slow times.

While expansion has slowed among the industry, hiring certainly is still pretty strong in corporate and fractional.

I know you just started a job hunting website but jeez, you sound a lot like Kit Darby.

You said it yourself, most of the money is being made overseas these days and most of those big airplanes are being sold to overseas customers.

If you think anyone is immune to high oil prices, guess again.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I know you just started a job hunting website but jeez, you sound a lot like Kit Darby.

You said it yourself, most of the money is being made overseas these days and most of those big airplanes are being sold to overseas customers.

If you think anyone is immune to high oil prices, guess again.

are they? what percentage?

what Fortune 500 flight departments have shut down recently? very few.

How many have recently taken or are waiting on new, large A/C orders? - many.

Kit Darby? - c'mon shag, our site is free to try - unless you want to look at jobs, then its $10 a year. Not quite something we need/want to push very hard , it simply keeps it self-sustaining, industry related, and keeps out trolls.

You seem to be pretty alone on the grim outlook for business aviation.

Do you even work in the industry?

 

[rice]

At JET the other day in TEB, you could not have stuffed another, Gstream, Global, Challenger, etc onto the ramp....it seemed to be business as usual. I think the 135s and smaller class jets might be cutting back, though. If anything the airline mess has strengthened some flight departments in my opinion.

What he said!!!!!!!!!!!!!
121 service levels have hit the proverbial bottom. The only which stinks more are the lav's.
That in and of itself will ensure that business aviation is around for the forseeable future. Try getting form NY to Aspen on an airline. How much fun is the terminal at LGA on a 95 degree day with the summer family traffic??
My boss just LOVES dealing with TSA!!!!!
Now that I've shot my mouth off.........................
Think maybe I'll update the resume .

 

[Shag McNasty]

are they? what percentage?

what Fortune 500 flight departments have shut down recently? very few.

How many have recently taken or are waiting on new, large A/C orders? - many.

Kit Darby? - c'mon shag, our site is free to try - unless you want to look at jobs, then its $10 a year. Not quite something we need/want to push very hard , it simply keeps it self-sustaining, industry related, and keeps out trolls.

You seem to be pretty alone on the grim outlook for business aviation.

Do you even work in the industry?

Hey look, I hope I'm wrong too, but I just don't think we've begun to see the affects of high oil prices on the corp side yet. I don't think it will be catastrophic like the airlines, but everyone will eventually feel the pain in all industries if oil stays high.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Hey look, I hope I'm wrong too, but I just don't think we've begun to see the affects of high oil prices on the corp side yet. I don't think it will be catastrophic like the airlines, but everyone will eventually feel the pain in all industries if oil stays high.

I guess I agree, and many already are..Fuel contract shopping and tankering is practically a full time job for departments these days. Charter operators are charging fuel surcharges. They are still busy.

Our newest aircraft choice was also influenced greatly on its fuel efficiency as compared to others in its range (30%+ better)...and most others who bought them said the same.

The pressure to make the budgets work is already there, always has been, but now its just harder.

Just remember, Signature is charging $8.50 because someone is paying it and if your boss starts really worrying about filling the tank or slows down his flying due to gas prices - better polish up the resume and shop for a job.

 

[AA717driver]

During previous downturns when departments were closing, that was the result of those aircraft being primarily a perk for the senior management. (If I'm not mistaken, there was a recession combined with a change in the IRS rules that greatly limited personal use of corporate aircraft.)

The focus of many departments, IMO, has changed. These aircraft are now indispensable--particularly in light of what has and is about to happen to the airline industry. It's only going to get worse for the airlines and their pax and get better for the overall climate for business aircraft operators. (Caveat: For those companies who are operating an aircraft by the skin of their teeth or have too much airplane for their size, things could get ugly.) TC

 

[semperfido]

tanker clown - er i mean tc

good observation, i agree

s/f

 

[AA717driver]

tanker clown - er i mean tc

s/f

Hey, watch it!

Thanks. TC

 

[CRAZY LEGS]

With all the drastic reductions on the 121 side of the industry, how is the Corp side doing? Has the economy affected the number of jobs? Are corp depts reducing fleet sizes?

If I was running a flight department I would take a hard look at the aircraft in my fleet and evaluate if what my department is operating is over kill for the majority of the flying. Flight departments that are using challengers and gulfstreams to fly 1-2 hr legs are asking to get cut. Sure its nice to have a GV but if your company really doesn't need its capabilites on a regular basis you better keep your resume up to date.

I know of one fortunate 100 department that is about to get steamrolled and the flight department doesn't even know its coming.

 

[NCherches]

All I know is that I have seen over 20 resumes for a 35K a year Citation FO position by Unemployeed airline pilots with 10,000 + hours...

If gas gets to 10/gallon for Jet A everyone will hurt, I don't care who you fly for... We are not far from this either as fuel was nearly 8/gal in MSP only a week ago (Contract Fuel Time!)

 

[BoilerUP]

$8.60/gal at Signature MKE two weeks ago...

 

[Grey Ghost]

All I know is that I have seen over 20 resumes for a 35K a year Citation FO position by Unemployeed airline pilots with 10,000 + hours...

If gas gets to 10/gallon for Jet A everyone will hurt, I don't care who you fly for... We are not far from this either as fuel was nearly 8/gal in MSP only a week ago (Contract Fuel Time!)

I am surprised that someone with those kind of qualifications would accept a salary that low in such an unstable environment!

 

[Tgaug6300]

Things are tough here. That is true. But, if the majority of your companies business is international. Things could not be better. With the weak U.S. dollar, international customers are having a "hay day". Therefore to meet with these customers it may be easier to justify the GV, the Globals and the Xs

 

[BoilerUP]

I am surprised that someone with those kind of qualifications would accept a salary that low in such an unstable environment!

Its easier to find a job if you have a job...which unemployed airline pilots don't have.

 

[Grey Ghost]

Its easier to find a job if you have a job...which unemployed airline pilots don't have.

Good Point!