Over 60? C'Ya!

CelticCitation

Larry Wannabe
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Had a very qualified pilot applicant turned down by our insurance today. The reason- no single pilot ops (B-200) for over 60 pilots. The pilot is 61, 19,000 hours, 9500 in type.

Anyone else run into this? This insurance environment is getting out of hand. Most guys will be 60 by the time they can meet any insurance minimums, then they'll be forced to retire.
 
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pilotman121

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Over 60?

It is hard for most customers to feel comfortable flying single pilot with older pilots,that is why we always run two pilots on all of our operations.There are alot of qualified King-Air 200 pilots depending on your pay,benefits and quality of life.
 
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pilotyip

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We routinely have two over 60 pilots in the cockpit at the same time. The insurance company could care less.
 

CelticCitation

Larry Wannabe
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We have been single pilot in King Airs for years, often send a CFI for experience, and are in the process of training 135 SICs. However, our POI as well as many on this board have pointed out the loggability issues of two pilot operations in aircraft requiring only one pilot. And yes, I know we could change our op specs to require SICs, and so on.

The real issue here is that insurance rates are increasing exponentially, and pilot requirements are increasing at about the same rate. We should not be at the whim of underwriters to define our operations.

Anyone out there have a reasonable insurance program? I know some of the larger operators have more buying power, and thus more negotiating power, but for us, it is getting rediculous.
 

CapnVegetto

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I've dealt with this before. Worked with a buddy on flying a Citation. Guy said we send him to initial at Simuflite, then get 50 hours in type, and he's good to go. Very reasonable. Then, right before he went to school, the broker changed his tune to 200 hours in type. We told him to go to hell. You either work with us, or we take our umpteen thousand bucks a year elsewhere. He chose the latter. It took about two calls to find another company that was willing to work with us.
 

Rick1128

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CelticCitation said:
We have been single pilot in King Airs for years, often send a CFI for experience, and are in the process of training 135 SICs. However, our POI as well as many on this board have pointed out the loggability issues of two pilot operations in aircraft requiring only one pilot. And yes, I know we could change our op specs to require SICs, and so on.
Your POI is mis-informed. Legal has confirmed several times in writting that under 135, if the company assigns a SIC to the flight it is loggable by that pilot. Even if the aircraft and PIC are Single Pilot/Auto Pilot qualified. The reason is that once a SIC is assigned to that flight he becomes required. Until he/she is relieved of duty. He has to meet all 135 requirements including training and testing.
 

pilotman121

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Over 60?

The Flight Standards District Office in our area told us, unless the second in command is qualified in the aircraft with a current check ride, he or she cannot log any flight time on a charter flight.
 

English

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That's what Rick1128 stated.
 

pilotman121

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Riding along doesn't count!

Sorry for the senior moment,Rick1128 was one hundred percent correct and for some reason it did not sound the same.
 

CelticCitation

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Rick1128,

Like your answer. Do you have a reference? Different subject perhaps, but something else I've been dealing with.
 

414Flyer

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A POI misinformed? Thats incredible, that must be a first :)

I agree with Rick, Part 135 IFR requires an SIC I believe for passenger flights, but you MAY choose to have an autopilot in lieu of the SIC requirement. But it does not say that if you have an autopilot, that it prevents you from having an SIC.
 

avbug

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However, our POI as well as many on this board have pointed out the loggability issues of two pilot operations in aircraft requiring only one pilot. And yes, I know we could change our op specs to require SICs, and so on.
OpSpecs have nothing to do with it. If the aircraft carries passengers under 135, a SIC is already required. You may obtain OpSpec A015 which authorizes us of an autopilot in lieu of a SIC, but the SIC is still authorized because this is basic to Part 135...the SIC is always required unless operating under an exemption issued by OpSpec.

Obviously a SIC must be qualified to act as SIC under Part 135, including experience and training requirements.

Get different insurance.
 

TransMach

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Two Pilot King Air Ops

Guys,

One thing to remember ... if you opt to use a SIC for passenger ops with six or more pax seats, turbine powered (i.e. KingAir) you need a CVR. No CVR it has to be single pilot!!

One of those little "Gotchya" things that many, many folks miss.

TransMach
 

Corona

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TransMach said:
Guys,

One thing to remember ... if you opt to use a SIC for passenger ops with six or more pax seats, turbine powered (i.e. KingAir) you need a CVR. No CVR it has to be single pilot!!

One of those little "Gotchya" things that many, many folks miss.

TransMach
Source?

C
 

pilotman121

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Corona

TransMach said:
Guys,

One thing to remember ... if you opt to use a SIC for passenger ops with six or more pax seats, turbine powered (i.e. KingAir) you need a CVR. No CVR it has to be single pilot!!

One of those little "Gotchya" things that many, many folks miss.

Alot of operators are in the dark over this 135 regulation,but our local FAA office told us it will be enforced.
 
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TransMach

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Source?

Mate,

Certainly, 14CFR135.151(a) which reads, in part:

"... (a) No person may operate a multiengine, turbine-powered airplane or rotorcraft having a passenger seating configuration of six or more and for which two pilots are required by certification or operating rules unless it is equipped with an approved cockpit voice recorder that: ..." blah blah blah

Uncortunately, there aren't a list of exceptions at the bottom of the rule.

FAR 135 requires that for IFR operations carrying passengers that the crew consists of a minimum of two pilots. Autopilot authorization is allowable in lieu of a required second in command, but if two pilots are used rather than an autopilot, the CVR is required if the airplane is configurated for six or more passengers.

Other questions?

TransMach
 

aeronautic1

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However, back on subject...

our insurance company will allow over 60 pilots but only if they wear Depends while on doody (sic) duty
 
3

350DRIVER

pilotman121 said:
It is hard for most customers to feel comfortable flying single pilot with older pilots,that is why we always run two pilots on all of our operations.There are alot of qualified King-Air 200 pilots depending on your pay,benefits and quality of life.
HA! I wish I could buy that one but I completely disagree and have not seen such over the years. Majority of all customers that I have flown 135/91 in the past felt much more assured with the older pilot(s) up front due to the experience level(s), previous accomplishments, work history, total time, etc, etc, . . The list can go on and on and on. "Age" isn't a show stopper in any way, I have come to know quite a few pilots in their mid to late 60's who had no problem at all being "insurable" to operate single pilot. If you are able to hold a first class medical then no complications usually come up. One captain inparticular is 76 and he routinely operates single pilot in a King Air 300 under 135. If the pilot is in good health, sharp, etc, then this "age" issue is no longer an issue for the obvious reasons.

The same could be said for the young 20's something cap ee tin who is in the left seat but the argument doesn't carry much weight.

Age isn't relevant here no matter how one attempts to spin it off.

Experience, flight time(s), previous work history, etc, cannot be over ridden by "age".
 
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