Our own worst enemy

[grounded92]

This morning someone suggested I take a look at one of the fractional company’s pilot salary schedule. I really wish they hadn’t!!

You see, we fractional pilots spend a large amount of time away from our families. We work long days with dynamic schedules that require us to operate into a seemingly endless number of airports. Additionally, in order to be able to secure a job with one of these companies we spend many years and often many dollars to qualify ourselves.

So what kind of compensation should we require? While this is a question each of us must answer for ourselves, let me give out a little advice. Taking a flying job that pays sh#t just because it is a flying job hurts the whole industry. Want proof, look at the regional airlines impact on airline pay rates. Why can’t they teach this stuff at those crappy flight schools that have infected colleges throughout the country!!

The classified section of your newspaper is full of unskilled jobs that pay 20-40 thousand dollars. If you want to top out at 40-60 thousand dollars get a CDL or manage a restaurant. But if you want to be a professional pilot….then take a little pride in your ability and demand a professional salary.

If you don’t salary levels will erode to the point where even you may decide that being a pilot is less important then providing for yourself. Then it will be time for a pay raise and a chance to run the fry station at your local burger joint.

 

[Jack Campbell]

this morning someone suggested i take a look at one of the fractional company’s pilot salary schedule. I really wish they hadn’t!!

which one?!

 

[gret]

"Demanding" isn't getting. The fact is the supply far exceeds demand and the market will decide how much one is paid.

BTW, I know several restaurant managers and they make over $100k/yr, have great benefits, love their job, and possess the opportunity to move up the organization and make more if they want. The supply doesn't meet the demand.

 

[glasspilot]

"if we all refused to fly for a penny less then 200K then we'd all be making more"

great point. Totally worthless though as that would never happen. In the world of real life people do what's best for them. If you stand up and say I'm not working for less than X amount and X amount is > market price then someone else will take your job.

Remember PFT? That was the battle cry then too. "If no one agreed to do it then it will stop". Well, you can't get EVERYONE to to ANYTHING. What made it stop (mostly) was market forces.

Dream all day about what you think "should be", but at the end of the day what matters is "what is".

gp

 

[gunfyter]

"Demanding" isn't getting. The fact is the supply far exceeds demand and the market will decide how much one is paid.

BTW, I know several restaurant managers and they make over $100k/yr, have great benefits, love their job, and possess the opportunity to move up the organization and make more if they want. The supply doesn't meet the demand.

That's why we need Unions to jack the prices up to what they need to be ....:laugh:

 

[Traderd]

The classified section of your newspaper is full of unskilled jobs that pay 20-40 thousand dollars. If you want to top out at 40-60 thousand dollars get a CDL or manage a restaurant. But if you want to be a professional pilot….then take a little pride in your ability and demand a professional salary.

Really? We have a U3 of almost 10% and a U6 of about 16% and you're saying the classiifed section of the newspaper is full of unskilled jobs that pay 40-60K?

Do you have any examples?

 

[Sparse]

It is pure and simple. It's the law of supply and demand. In the 60s, airlines were hiring pilots with less than 1000 hours, most of it light single engine time. The demand was high and the supply low. It was always said that an airline captain in the sixtys could buy a Cadillac on one months pay. Not any more. In the middle East and Asia, the jobs are paying significantly better than here and Europe. Why is that? The demand is high the supply is not. Yes learning to fly here is still expensive but far less expensive than other parts of the world, especially when compared to GDP. The result is we have far to many pilots seeking a scarcity of jobs. I am not shorselling our skills but if the medical schools started churning out 1000s of more docs each year, the compensation levels and quality of life would go down. There are many under or un-employed lawyers, MBAs, engineers, etc, because of the same circumstances. CitationAir pilots were awarded significant raises two years ago. Did CA managment do this out of the goodness of their heart. I say no. They did it because of the mass exodus to NJ of their junior pilots. More recently, that payscale was significally adjusted. Why? Attrition went to virtually zero and there are about 80 pilots on furlough. A contributor to the supply problem is the openess of our certification regulations and employment policies. It is relativley easy for a foreigner to come to the U.S. and gain the credentials and right to work than it is for us to go to Europe and other parts of the world. Try getteing a JAR license and work for NJ Europe. Who wouldn't like to do that?

 

[smartelephant]

It all comes down to a little thing we here in America like to call capitalism. I think if you took some time and did a bit of research, you would better understand why wages are low and people are more than happy to work for them. Rich people didn't get rich by blowing all their money, therefore they're bargin hunters to. Even when it comes to private jet travel.

 

[AftCG182]

This morning someone suggested I take a look at one of the fractional company’s pilot salary schedule. I really wish they hadn’t!!

You see, we fractional pilots spend a large amount of time away from our families. We work long days with dynamic schedules that require us to operate into a seemingly endless number of airports. Additionally, in order to be able to secure a job with one of these companies we spend many years and often many dollars to qualify ourselves.

So what kind of compensation should we require? While this is a question each of us must answer for ourselves, let me give out a little advice. Taking a flying job that pays sh#t just because it is a flying job hurts the whole industry. Want proof, look at the regional airlines impact on airline pay rates. Why can’t they teach this stuff at those crappy flight schools that have infected colleges throughout the country!!

The classified section of your newspaper is full of unskilled jobs that pay 20-40 thousand dollars. If you want to top out at 40-60 thousand dollars get a CDL or manage a restaurant. But if you want to be a professional pilot….then take a little pride in your ability and demand a professional salary.

If you don’t salary levels will erode to the point where even you may decide that being a pilot is less important then providing for yourself. Then it will be time for a pay raise and a chance to run the fry station at your local burger joint.

NJW buy a new screen name?

 

[jonjuan]

It was always said that an airline captain in the sixtys could buy a Cadillac on one months pay. Not any more.

Really? You can still do that today:

http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/accident_story/1-16-04.html

Of course, I am partial to my Merlot Brougham...
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/317484

 

[grounded92]

Don't need an economics 001 lesson

"Demanding" isn't getting.

Why is anybody taking these low paying jobs. Don't give me the carrot at the end of the stick theory. The moment we take these jobs we put downward pressure on every salary in the industry

What is the mindset of somebody working at a regional or any job for that matter that doesn't offer much money.

Myself, first job, non-cfi, paid over $30,000 to start. Not much but it was turbine pic time. Right now with 5500 hours I will not accept anything that won't have me over $100,000 within max of 5 years. I am worth more than that! My experience and education is worth more than that!

And I damn sure was never worth as little as $20,000. The regionals should not be able to find anybody willing to fill out an application!!!! So if you want to talk economics 001, why is our collective pilot will so weak that we supply ourselves for almost nothing? That's my question, why!!

 

[grounded92]

Really? We have a U3 of almost 10% and a U6 of about 16% and you're saying the classiifed section of the newspaper is full of unskilled jobs that pay 40-60K?

Do you have any examples?

Are you suggesting restaurant managers and commercial drivers are unskilled? Those where my examples for that salary range. My brother is a garbage man, the high end of that range. I've done the GM thing, easy job and not a dirty as you think. His job is one of countless examples; realtors, route sales, LPN's, ect.

But you made my point. We have captains willing to make 40-60k when folkes with litte education or experience make that and sleep in their own bed everyday. Why?

 

[grounded92]

Yeah, here's some good points.

A contributor to the supply problem is the openess of our certification regulations and employment policies. It is relativley easy for a foreigner to come to the U.S. and gain the credentials and right to work than it is for us to go to Europe and other parts of the world. Try getteing a JAR license and work for NJ Europe. Who wouldn't like to do that?[/QUOTE]

I too feel that our "trade" policy is generally to free. (this is the part where novice economic students will get on here and shout loudly for free trade!!) When we don't protect our markets as other markets do we realize damage.

However, I don't agree with your analogy concerning doctors. I don't believe the supply of doctors would continue more than a generation if the salarys were rapidly falling. Can't prove that, just don't believe it. I think the pilot profession is at or nearing the time when salaries have been steeply declining for a couple of decades. Let's see if pilot supply dwindles as it should.

 

[Traderd]

Are you suggesting restaurant managers and commercial drivers are unskilled? Those where my examples for that salary range. My brother is a garbage man, the high end of that range. I've done the GM thing, easy job and not a dirty as you think. His job is one of countless examples; realtors, route sales, LPN's, ect.

But you made my point. We have captains willing to make 40-60k when folkes with litte education or experience make that and sleep in their own bed everyday. Why?

My bad. You did indicate that the unskilled positions are advertised at 20-40K. Didn't mean to misrepresent, it was just my error. My apologies.

My point is that with the U3 and U6 numbers so high, it isn't readily apparent that there are a lot of any jobs available.

I assume your question as to "why" is rhetorical. Certainly you know "why."

 

[AOA]

It is relatively easy for a foreigner to come to the U.S. and gain the credentials and right to work than it is for us to go to Europe and other parts of the world. Try getting a JAR license and work for NJ Europe. Who wouldn't like to do that?

Actually I can tell you that as a Canadian who looked to train and ultimately work in the US... It is not easy at all. Back in the day it was having the choice of airlines and a boyhood dream to fly the big iron. I tried every (legal) angle to immigrant or get work status back in high school. In the end I stayed in Canada and things worked out great..

I'd say that it's actually easier to get a work permit in Europe so long as your direct family are Europeans living in an EU member country. The only thing that is tough (and costly) can be the JAR conversions.

In the end it always comes down to someone thinking the grass is always greener on the other side.

 

[jetwash]

Why is anybody taking these low paying jobs. Don't give me the carrot at the end of the stick theory. The moment we take these jobs we put downward pressure on every salary in the industry

Why don't you quit your pilot job and do one of those great paid unskilled jobs. I will then be able to ask my boss for more money.

 

[smartelephant]

A few things here:

"Demanding" isn't getting.

Why is anybody taking these low paying jobs

.
becasue it's better than no job at all.

Don't give me the carrot at the end of the stick theory. The moment we take these jobs we put downward pressure on every salary in the industry

What is the mindset of somebody working at a regional or any job for that matter that doesn't offer much money.

you gotta start somewhere and usually that's at the bottom.
Myself, first job, non-cfi, paid over $30,000 to start. Not much but it was turbine pic time. Right now with 5500 hours I will not accept anything that won't have me over $100,000 within max of 5 years.

I am worth more than that! My experience and education is worth more than that!

you're only worth what someone is willing to pay you.
And I damn sure was never worth as little as $20,000. The regionals should not be able to find anybody willing to fill out an application!!!! So if you want to talk economics 001, why is our collective pilot will so weak that we supply ourselves for almost nothing? That's my question, why!!

I think the one thing you may be forgetting is that professional pilots, as a whole, enjoy what they do. And most aren't going to take a desk job in protest over a few thousand dollars a year.

 

[Sparse]

Myself, first job, non-cfi, paid over $30,000 to start. Not much but it was turbine pic time. Right now with 5500 hours I will not accept anything that won't have me over $100,000 within max of 5 years. I am worth more than that! My experience and education is worth more than that!

And I damn sure was never worth as little as $20,000. The regionals should not be able to find anybody willing to fill out an application!!!! So if you want to talk economics 001, why is our collective pilot will so weak that we supply ourselves for almost nothing? That's my question, why!!

A buddy of mine is a nursuryman and landscaper. He is extremenly good at what he does. He has industry certifications and grows some of the best plants around. He thinks his plants are worth a lot of money and they are. Problem is there are others in his field willing to sell for less. He refused to lower his price. Guess what. He doesn't have much business right now. Not because his product is inferior, it's not. He does a great job. There are just too many people, some less qualified, doing what he does, with too few people wanting his product.

I don't doubt that you are well qualified and good at what you do. That's great. The problem is those who want your services disagree and have others to select from.

If you think your worth more, then you might consider another line of work or go where the wages are higher, Asia, middle East etc., at least untill the imbalance corrects itself.

 

[hammer2]

This morning someone suggested I take a look at one of the fractional company’s pilot salary schedule. I really wish they hadn’t!!

You see, we fractional pilots spend a large amount of time away from our families. We work long days with dynamic schedules that require us to operate into a seemingly endless number of airports. Additionally, in order to be able to secure a job with one of these companies we spend many years and often many dollars to qualify ourselves.

So what kind of compensation should we require? While this is a question each of us must answer for ourselves, let me give out a little advice. Taking a flying job that pays sh#t just because it is a flying job hurts the whole industry. Want proof, look at the regional airlines impact on airline pay rates. Why can’t they teach this stuff at those crappy flight schools that have infected colleges throughout the country!!

The classified section of your newspaper is full of unskilled jobs that pay 20-40 thousand dollars. If you want to top out at 40-60 thousand dollars get a CDL or manage a restaurant. But if you want to be a professional pilot….then take a little pride in your ability and demand a professional salary.

If you don’t salary levels will erode to the point where even you may decide that being a pilot is less important then providing for yourself. Then it will be time for a pay raise and a chance to run the fry station at your local burger joint.

Judging by the aircraft you've flown, I don't see anything that pays $200k. I do believe we are under paid ,however, over the years thanks to nja the payscale has been increasing.

 

[gret]

Judging by the aircraft you've flown, I don't see anything that pays $200k. I do believe we are under paid ,however, over the years thanks to nja the payscale has been increasing.

Hammer2...just a general observation, but I see and hear this phrase often, not always relating to pilot pay, and wonder what it means. "Under paid" compared to what or whom? Not sure I have ever met anybody that didn't think they should be making more.

Not against having higher salaries, but how is worth, when it comes to pay, determined? Shouldn't soldiers on the front lines be the highest paid professionals?

I had a boss put this to me once when I said I should be paid more and I wasn't smart enough to come up with a great answer. Nice guy and quicker than me.

Perhaps it is just rhetorical.