Other reasons airlines are failing...

[DashTrash400]

Yikes, I thought it was a perfectly sensible post. He wasn't proposing to impale babies on spikes, to paraphrase George Carlin... you woulda thought it from some of the responses.

When I'm nonreving I don't complain if I'm stuck between a 400 lb hermaphrodite cowboy from Brazil and an excited Jehovah's Witness while the 3 rambunctious Ugly Monkey's (UM's) behind me kick my seat and five lap kids in the immediate vicinity scream their lungs out....BUT it's still a perfectly valid to question whether that sort of situation becoming commonplace is one of the things that'd make paying passengers fly as little as practical.

The person ante'ing up for a F ticket does have a few expections regarding comfort, service, and yes, decorum. Chances are they're thinking precisely of that screaming kid in Y when they decide to pony up the $. Banning young children from non-reving in F seems to be a perfectly reasonable policy; doing so to paying passengers would invite a lawsuit and unwanted media attention - "Delta hates kids!" - while alienating those well-heeled passengers with well-behaved children.

Anyways...High fuel costs, security costs, depressed yeilds, SWA, and good old fashioned mismanagement are helping airlines fail easily enough...I doubt it's colicky infants pushing them over the edge.

 

[crazee8]

About the 3rd time a brat runs by me at a restaurant screaming....I stop him/her and notify them (with a serious psycho look) that there will be a devil/killer in thier closet tonight when they go to bed....and he hates little kids...now run along and tell your daddy that, and then send him over so I can kick his a$$.

That usually stops the drive-bys by little brats.

Dude, do you have any other ideas? I like your train of thought.

Kids almost always make the travel experience miserable except for the the small minority of parents out there who know how to handle their kids. To those parents - we are forever grateful.

 

[Ty Webb]

Sorry, guys, I'm with DashTrash on this one. First Class is no place for infants or toddlers. Setting a minimum age limit would be very appropriate.

And as to non-reving with kids- if I am offered seats in business when I have my 4 year old with me, I usually say, "thanks, but we'll take something in the back".

 

[Paul R. Smith]

I think Most legacies have a policy that keeps children under 5 from sitting in first. Its just a matter of wether the gate enforces that.

But as far as any of you guys bitching about kids. How many of you have them? Do you ever expect to have kids? If not well then I'm sorry for you. We parents do what we can but sometimes the kids gonna have a meltdown. It makes matters worse when the kid has to put his/her seatbelt on for T/O and landing and not climb all over creation. That is what kids do. Kids are gonna be kids. Kids also cry and sometimes there is nothing you can do to calm them down. Live with it. Its life.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

In 16 years you are going to want someone to take your order at MickeyD's. Or perhaps you want to pay $50 for a BigMac.

Children are our future..

 

[jtf]

Mandatory sleeping pills for all under age 5 on all flight, period! Or at least let the FAs get away with drugging the rug rats when they are our of control. FAs could carry tranquilizer guns that could serve the dual purpose of anti-terrorist and anti-tantrum.

 

[Hovernut]

...just wait until they can use cell phones in flight!

 

[Huck]

Or you could do like the family I saw one time going from Paris to Atlanta on Air Frog's 747 - two little kids (ages 7 and 10) were sitting beside me in coach, and every once in awhile a well dressed woman would come back from first and check on them.

I finally asked - the parents bought themselves first class tickets, and put the kids in coach.

PS - 9 times out of 10 if a baby is screaming in pain on an aircraft, their ears are stopped up.

 

[IAHERJ]

I remember Continental having pretty strict rules about kids in first. I was on my own carrier last month commuting in business class when our agent put a family in business with 2 small children. One of the kids screamed so loud on descent it caused people to actually get out of their seats and ask if they could be of assistance. I watched as several of our businessmen who had paid for the upgrade rolled their eyes and sat in misery. I don't think they should have had to endure that mess. To top it off, they were non-rev's from another airline that our agents put in Business class. Sorry if I sound cold but leave the first/business class cabins for the people who do business and pay our bills. Unless the passanger pays full business fare for the seat for his or her screaming child, they should be in the back.

IAHERJ

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

I non-reved on Delta from the ages between three and twenty-three. My Dad gave me many rules that I had to follow. Also, back in the seventies and early eighties there was no such thing as a non-rev unacompanied minor program. When me and my little bother flew to see the grandparents we were on our own. My Dad usually would pin his service pin on my lapel so the FAs would know to look out for us.

Now for the rules: Do not open your mouth unless spoken to, do not ask the FA for anything, yes ma'am no ma'am etc, and under no circumstances was I allowed to get up when the seat belt sign was on. If any of these rules were broken my Dad would be fired and thrown in jail, at least that is what he told me. And, to this day I get flustered if an FA offers me a choice of meals .

 

[Vik]

You'd be surprised to know that many airlines do infact prohibt babies in 1st and Business. People that have infants usually get bulkhead seats in Coach in order to have the crib hooked up the "wall." They keep those seats reserved for that purpose and the legroom is as good as business class.

Where is Resume Writer (Kathy) when we need her .. and all the other FAs or ex-FAs on here. They need to chime in and tell us what the policy was on their airline.

I got the point, Vik. The point is that noone prohibits babies in 1st, at least none that I know of, and I don't think any passenger is going to say "boy, I hated that screaming baby on (insert airline here), so I think next time I will go on (insert other airline here) instead", or "boy, I hated that screaming baby on that airliner, next time I'll drive". This was just a b1tchfest about a screaming baby cloaked in a "this will cause that airline to fail" story.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Or you could do like the family I saw one time going from Paris to Atlanta on Air Frog's 747 - two little kids (ages 7 and 10) were sitting beside me in coach, and every once in awhile a well dressed woman would come back from first and check on them.

I finally asked - the parents bought themselves first class tickets, and put the kids in coach.

PS - 9 times out of 10 if a baby is screaming in pain on an aircraft, their ears are stopped up.

very true about the babies...and take a look at that mom traveling with the infants, chances are she is completly burned out and twice as aggrevated as you....and remember, even if YOU hate kids -- chances are YOUR mom had to do the same thing with you and you bet you balled your eyes out too...

Give them a smile, ask if they can use any help-you will make that Moms day and look like a true gentleman.

then maybe discriminantly ask the FA's if there is another row you can sit in (?) if it really drives you nuts.

but....

until you own your own GIV or Fractional Share, shut your fruckin' mouth and enjoy your 16 inches of space you paid $99 and dont worry about the other pax, chump..

 

[Corona]

I have sympathy for parents of the squalling kids. My oldest niece has a voice almost loud enough to shatter glass, and of course she had to be colicky when she was an infant. Naturally, as a bonus, her ears also usually stopped up when they flew. Prior to 9/11, I would often pick them up at the gate, and I could see the dirty looks shot at them by other pax.

There's a big difference between a screaming baby and bratty, older kids, though. If a kid's having a bad day in the row behind me, my earplugs will usually filter it out. If he's kicking the back of my seat; trouble's a'brewin'. I don't tolerate more than 30 seconds of that before I'll speak to the parents.

I never fly without earplugs.

C

 

[Cactus-Wrench]

Interesting, I have to agree with the guy/gal who started the thread. I think the root of the problem though is more to do with air-travel etiquette. What was, and what is. I can remember the few times I got to travel by airplane when I was a young lad, and if I was not behaving like a perfect gentleman, I got the look, that meant in about 5 seconds, my hind end was going to be as red as the fire extinguisher. Of course in those days, you wouldn't of been met by child protection services, local port authority, and a host of other child abuse services.

Lots of folks I see coming on board with flip flops on, holes in the crotches and rears of their pants, t-shirts that say stuff like F***You, I just F******Your Mother, putting their feet up on the seats, even the first class folks putting their feet with shoes on the bulk head, leaving nice scuff marks. Kid sitting behind me repeatedly kicking my seatback, and furthermore the parent not saying anything until I have to say something to them. Folks using the lav barefoot, and you try and be nice and tell them of sanitary risks, and they get mad at you, go figure.

It's really down right pathetic, and I actually prefer to sit in coach, maybe get a couple of seats to myself, just for the fact I am a nonrev and I don't want anything special. Oh well, just my 2 cents.

 

[Eagle-ista]

A few of you missed my point, Most didn't...

I.P.-
This is not a "bitchfest". I used to travel with a 3 year old autistic daughter. I know what it's like to have the entire plane looking at you like you just burned down a village full of women and chidren. I never took my kids in first. (it wasn't an pressure/ear blockage issue, she just couldn't sit still for that long.) My airline wouldn't allow it and I wouldn't think of it.

I was amamzed to see how many took the opportunity to attack me personally. I don't feel that passengers are any less human because they have children. But, I don't believe lap children, I'm talking one to two year olds, are appropriate in first class on an airliner flying a long distance.

I made reference to how pi$$ed I thought a passenger would be if they paid for that first class ticket and mentioned some of the reasons why many passengers pay for that upgrade. One of which is being away from an out of control lap child that bothers the other paying passengers around them. People don't pay $ to help raise other people's children when they sit in a premium seat. All it would take is one unruly child, jumping on it's parent's lap, howling at the top of it's lungs to put them off not only flying in first, but flying that airline.

I have actually seen a mother start to change her child's diaper on the floor in first. Another passenger got a flight attendant's attention and she asked the mother to change the baby in the lav. Can you imagine how that smell enhances the experience of paying $1,000 for a premium seat, when you could have paid less than $500? It also goes so well with red wine.

Assume for a moment the reason that passenger paid to sit in first was to sleep, perhaps after being awake all day or all night. Is it unreasonable for that passenger to feel that he deserves the quiet that they associcate with paying for first class?

I realize that we are no longer just competing with the other airlines for passengers. We are competing with bus companies as well. I am amazed with the level of intellegence that gets on my planes, in some cases, that they even found the right gate, let alone the right airport. This is, of course, a generalization. I have met many very interesting people as well.

I have sat between that professional wrestler and the Cowboy with the 20 gallon hat in a middle seat in the last row in coach, and when I'm non-reving, I'm happy to be anywhere on the inside of the aluminum tube. I mentioned this because I saw the paying passengers obvious desire to be somewhere else when these kids, and their parents, have made first class, "less than premium".

 

[saabcaptain]

Am I alone in this perception?

yes, yes you are.

 

[jetexas]

How many of you folks who jumped down Eagle-ista's throat would bring a toddler into a movie theatre? A fine, upscale restaurant? A symphony?, etc.
I believe his point was there are some places where infant/toddler kids should not be allowed.
That's the esssense of very young kids. Nothing against them, they just don't know, can't or or not guided to behave or sit still.
First Class means, (or at least historically meant) wine or drink, food, better seat, better service, peace and quiet?..A cut above. If airlines allow parents with toddler kids to ride in 'First Class', then the name and price structure should be changed to meet the model and expectation.

 

[I.P. Freley]

How many of you folks who jumped down Eagle-ista's throat would bring a toddler into a movie theatre? A fine, upscale restaurant? A symphony?, etc.

I did jump down his throat, and even I recognize I got carried away a little. The angry response didn't really match the nature of the "crime", so eagle-ista, I officially apologize for flying off the handle like that. Sometimes I do that.

In any case, jetexas' argument above is not a good one, imho. Movie theaters, restaurants and symphonies are places that are usually in the same locale (more or less) as the parents and child, and furthermore, are places where people go for entertainment. Infants in those places are totally unwarranted, as neighbors or babysitters are the norm in such situations.

Airplanes, buses, and other transportation modes are not in the same category at all. I, too, have been horribly annoyed by screaming/crying babies while either non-revving or traveling on my own dime, but I just accept it. I don't think it is reasonable to expect mom and pop with their offspring to leave the kids behind, because more than likely any parents travelling with children are going on vacation (a relative concept when children are present) or going to visit grandma and grandpa. I also don't think it is reasonable, even if it's already some airlines' policy, to tell people who are willing to spend THOUSANDS of dollars to buy up three, four or five seats in first class "sorry, we'd love to take your money but you all have to sit in coach, where your annoying toddler(s) can annoy even MORE people, but those people didn't pay as much so tough t1tty on them".

In the end, I'm not sure I understand the original argument, or at least the question posed at the top of the thread. Are people really going to NOT travel on an airline because they had an experience with a screaming baby on their last flight? What if it wasn't a baby at all, but a smelly fellow passenger sitting next to them? Or a crazy person babbling to themselves? Or the first time flyer who's so nervous and freaked out that they infect everyone within ten feet? Or speaking of infected, the row-mate who's got the flu and is sneezing all over the place? Or someone who's drunk? Or your basic Chatty Cathy who won't leave you alone? I'm sure we've all experienced one or more of the above (or in my case, ALL of them).

I'm trying to imagine a situation where the cabin crew tells a passenger who spent two grand on his seat "sorry, sir, you smell too bad, so you can't sit here". It's not too far off from "sorry, sir, your money is no good here and take your little monsters back to coach".

I think people mostly choose airlines to go places that are too far to drive. I doubt people are just going to choose NOT TO GO because of screaming babies, and most of us can't charter our own airplane.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

We don't argue about this at SWA. Every seat is first class.

 

[Mooseflyer]

We don't argue about this at SWA. Every seat is first class.