Orenstein and US Airways

[bdejong]

Does anybody know what the U pilots scope clause says about their sub contractors flying airplanes larger than 70 seats? It was my understanding that the contract forbids U management from using a sub if they fly larger a/c, even if they fly them under their own name. That being the case, what does the U contract with Mesa say? If U management didn't get it in writing that Mesa agrees not to operate the 90 seat rj but they have a legally binding contract with their pilots to stop subbing with some one who operates them, are they going to have to break the Mesa contract and pay Mesa off? If they do have it in writing that Mesa won't fly bigger planes, then they can break the contract without paying but can they afford to lose the revenue and market share? Any thoughts? Publisher, you talked to all those guys at the RAA, speak to me, oh knowledgeable one!
Brian De Jong

 

[Andy Neill]

While we're waiting for publisher's response, let me chime in with my understanding of the set up.

US Airways scope provisions disallow any code share from operating 70/90 seat jets. This is enforced whether or not those jets are used by the code share in US Airways Express operations or for operations in support of some other code share partner. Mesa had planned to get 70 seat CRJs to support America West Express oeprations but could not under the scope provisions.

Therefore, Mesa Air Group, the parent company for Mesa Airlines, is forming Freedom Air which will have the freedom to do the 70 seat America West Express operations presuming US Airways' agreement is with Mesa Airlines and not Mesa Air Group.

For others with better info, please correct anything I have misstated.

 

[vja217]

I assume they'll set it up the same way they did with their Deutsche BA code share in Europe. They fly more than 70 seats, right?

 

[surplus1]

Unless I'm mistaken, in addition to what Andy said, the new LOA81 recently negotiated at U, removes the previous restriction against 70/90 seat aircraft operated by U subcontractors as long as the aircraft at not used to code-share with U. Therefore, Mesa would now be free to make the deal with AW without having to create Freedom.

However, press reports indicate that JO will continue with the creation of Freedom. That allows him to bypass the Mesa pilot contract and avoid negotiations for the new jets. Another reduction in the compensation package (at Freedom and Mesa) is likely to be the result as this airline (Freedom) will be whipsawed against the the Mesa pilots (and also against the AW pilots).

ALPA objected to the creation of Freedom and called JO "another Lorenzo". However, weeks later ALPA sanctioned and fostered the rejuvenation of Potomac, a new subsidiary of USAir Group.

Potomac will do to the USAir subsidiaries pilots (Piedmont, Allegheny and PSA .... all represented by ALPA) the exact same thing that Freedom will do to Mesa pilots, i.e., undercut their compensation and remove their bargaining leverage. It has already begun with furloughs announced at all three and the company demanding contract concessions. Potomac has been renamed Mid Atlantic Airways and will get all or most of the new U regional jets. One or more of the present USAir subsidiaries may well go out of business when Potomac is up and running.

The only real difference between Freedom and Potomac is that all Potomac pilots will be furloughed USAir pilots and Potomac will recognize ALPA as the bargaining agent.

This is a classic case of ALPA selling out its members at PDT, ALG, PSA, in favor of USAir mainline pilots, while the "kettle calls the pot black". There is little doubt that ALPA could have arranged to place the new jets at the current USAir subsidiaries while protecting the mainline pilots and the regional pilots that it supposedly represents. Instead, ALPA chose to discard its "regional pilot" members in favor of mainline pilots, again.

ALPA's treachery and double dealing in this matter is hypocrisy at its finest. If JO is "another Lorenzo" what is ALPA ..... another Benedict Arnold?

 

[typhoonpilot]

Oh Boy - Here we go again

Surplus1 is right about LOA 81 changing the code share restriction. Mesa is free to operate 70/90 seat RJs for America West Express now. It is too bad the Ornstein is going ahead with Freedom Air though.

While I won't comment on the integrity of ALPA, I would have to disagree with Surplus1's comments in regards to Potomac/Mid-Atlantic. Being on the other side of the fence, I have watched PDT, ALG, PSA benefit enormously at the expense of the mainline over the last 12 years. They have taken our routes and not offered us jobs while on furlough. This isn't the fault of the pilots, it is the management of mainline that makes these decisions. So getting mad at one another serves no real purpose.

This time the mainline pilots have fought hard enough to ensure they they get some of the jobs that are going away from the mainline. Sorry that it will adversely affect pilots at the wholly owneds but there are 1070 furloughed USAirways pilots already and probably more to follow and since it is mainline routes that are being flown with these new jets it should be mainline pilots flying them.

 

[JetProp]

"I have watched PDT, ALG, PSA benefit enormously at the expense of the mainline over the last 12 years."

How exactly have we benefitted at ML's expense? The WO's are flying 17 year old props while the contracters recieve new equipment. We are furloughing and probably will go out of business-how is this a benefit? I'm still in the right seat after two years and probably never will see the left seat at PDT-benefit-no.

"They have taken our routes and not offered us jobs while on furlough."

We were allocated thin markets. Short haul heavy lift operations. Markets where a 737-400 was operating with 30-40 pax each leg and losing money. Why not place a Dash-8 on the route IE: CLT-AVL and operate at a profit. The time difference between a Dash and a 737 is minimal; I timed it once-five minutes difference.

PDT, PSA, and ALG all hired furloughed ML pilots and let them retain full recall rights back to ML. In fact, ML furloughees were unjustly terminated from ALG as retaliation for not "playing nice" in reagrds to letter of extortion 81.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I agree that Freedom Air and MidAtlantic are the same. They are a new alter-ego airline started up by an owner to benefit themselves at the expense of a segment of their own pilots (Mesa/WOs).

Logically, ALPA should either be for both or against both. But, when $s are considered, ALPA's position makes sense. The U pilots contribute a vast amount of $ to ALPA, compared with Mesa. So, ALPA will do what is good for the U, at the expense of ALPA's own WO pilots, who don't matter $-wise nearly as much as the U pilots. At Mesa, ALPA supports the Mesa pilots, as there are no Freedom Air pilots to compete with Mesa for ALPA contributions, and, in fact, if Freedom goes (it's non-union) that will weaken ALPA.

This is why ALPA is being sued by Regional pilots. ALPA has supported actions at Delta, and now at the U that benefits ALPA's big-money pilots at the expense of small-money pilots.

If you think about it, it is hard for ALPA being the union of ALL carriers. If NWA moves into a market with more flights, that's good for NWA ALPA, while at the same time, UAL may lose a number of flights at the same location, which hurts UAL ALPA.

One way to solve this would be an ALPA seniority number. When you were first hired by an ALPA carrier, no matter who they were, you would get an ALPA number, that would stay with you until you retire. That way, if you were hired by PanAm, you would have a number, and if they went out of business because of actions by UAL, for instance, that PanAm pilot could apply at UAL, and, if hired, would start at pay/benefits of his master ALPA number. Your seniority would be portable, as long as you worked for an ALPA carrier.

If there were a furlough, you could go to a smaller carrier with your number, and later go back to a bigger airline with you number.

What do you guys think of this idea?????

Cliff
GB,WI

 

[publisher]

Summoned

Did I hear my name being summoned.

I believe that the scoop is already posted here by others, except that JO probably goes ahead with Freedom anyway. Why? Not so much to have a non-unon airline, but rather to have an airline entity not tied to a major carrier.

In some of my other posts, I indicated that he was not in the best position as a contract carrier for two airlines that might not have made it through the slowdown that had started before the 11th.. As these are the weakest, he needs something that he can just go ahead and compete with.

 

[JetProp]

"...and since it is mainline routes that are being flown with these new jets it should be mainline pilots flying them."

If am correct Gangwall offered ML 60 RJ's a few years back and the offer was rejected because U pilots didn't want to fly for "those pay rates."

 

[bobbysamd]

ALPA seniority number

I've followed these "scope" discussions with interest because I want to learn and understand. I also enjoy pro-union v. anti-union discussions, as Pub will attest.

The ALPA seniority number is an interesting thought, but, given ALPA's fragmentation policy, would it be practical?

I only throw it out for thought because fragmentation didn't work so well for the many of the Eastern pilots of eleven years ago.

 

[surplus1]

The idea of a "national seniority list" has been explored inside out for many years. IMO, it is a nice idea that is actually impossible to achieve at this point. We're about 70 years too late.

It would be like trying to make one State out of the 50 we now have or like giving back all of the Indian's land, because we did them wrong over 100 years ago.

It's just not doable.

 

[surplus1]

Here's some insight into to what these startups like Freedom and other subcontractors can do to our already low compensation.

Freedom offers the following pay rates to Captains on jets with "more than 64 seats" [Note: since Freedom is brand new all Captains will be at 1st year longevity] Compare the rates to Comair rates for the CRJ-700

Freedom Captain Comair Captain

$55.50 $61.63

Freedom FO Comair FO

$20.47 $21.75

Perhaps you think "that's pretty close", but remember this.

1) At Freedom, those rates will also apply to the 90-seat RJ.

2) At Comair, no captain with less than 15 years can hold the CRJ-700. Therefore the Captain rate at Comair will actually be $96.13.

A Comair FO will not be able to hold this aircraft with less than 2 years seniority, so the Comair FO will earn $38.13.

3) If Comair had a 90-seat jet, the rate would be substantially higher than the 70-seat jet. Not the same.

Comair pay rates are NOT the world's greatest. Nevertheless, the difference is $40.63/hr for the Captain and $17.66/hr for FO. Tht could add up to as much as $58,290/yr for the flight crew.

That's a difference of $58.29/hr in base pay rates for a crew and does NOT take into consideration the burden of other contractual provisions and benefits that Comair pilots enjoy, which increase the "real" cost of a Comair pilot by another 45%.

If the time ever comes when we have to compete for flying with Freedom, guess who will get the contract?

At Potomac, we don't know what the rates will be as yet. We know that both CA and FO are supposed to be paid at Captain rates. Potomac will recognize the union, but the union has no contract with Potomac. They'll have to negotiate one. Will their rates (as a startup) be the same as Comairs 15 yr Captain rate or the same as Freedom's 1st year Captain rate? So much for the idea that when "mainline pilots" fly regional jets they'll be paid at "mainline rates". That's a pipe dream.

BTW the Freedom rate for the 70/90-seat jet is lower by $5.32/hr/crew that the rate Comair has to pay its most junior Captain and FO for a 40-seat jet.

Just thought you might find that interesting. Comments?

 

[I.P. Freley]

Target selection

My comment is that I don't know why you are comparing first-year captain rates at Freedom against 15-year captain rates at ComAir. I understand your point, but the reality is that companies with single-aircraft fleets (of jets in this case) allow someone with less than 15 years longevity to get the left seat, and will of course make less money than the person with over a decade in the company.

I didn't quite catch onto what your personal spin is on the matter. I presume, and tell me if I am wrong, that anyone that works for a USAirways Express contract carrier is somehow responsible for the suffering of the W/O's. I don't buy into this argument at all. If you want to blame someone, blame ALPA, blame mainline, but don't dare blame me or anyone else who is flying under your colors and getting paid less than you are for the same work.

Many of us out there are or were furloughed by someone else, in some cases (mine included) from yet ANOTHER contract carrier for USAir. This writer even made the attempt to get on with a W/O, and ended up turning down an interview with another when a better offer came along. Thank GOD I didn't get either one of those jobs, because I'd be on the street. Again.

If I had you wrong, no offense intended... but even if I have YOU wrong, there's someone else out there who thinks a pilot with Chautauqua/Shuttle America/TransStates/Colgan etc. is now the enemy (or always has been from some stuff I've read). Reevaluate who your enemy REALLY is and don't hold it against some other schlub out there just flying and trying to pay the bills.

 

[TWA69]

I think there is a real demise becoming on our profession. We are the one's letting it happen, Ornestein starts freedom air and pays S__T to the pilots, but will have no problem finding them. Then on the other side of the country you have Siegal starting up this BULLS__T airline Midatlantic., why do we put up with this S__T, DON'T FLY FOR THEM!!!!!!!!!!!! If you do your a SCAB!!!!!

 

[everyonedoa360]

typhoonpilot pilot,

YOU are totally wrong!

And to TWA69 the pilots who go work for these companies are NOT scabs! And in a way you are calling USAir main line pilots scabs. I guess now that you're insulting your own kind you might want to rethink that comment. And you should be nothing but happy since AMR saved your ass.

 

[TWA69]

How did AMR save my ASS if I am sitting at home on my ASS Unemployed?

You are a DUMBASS!!!!

 

[skydiverdriver]

IP,
There are times when we might be upset at an individual pilot for his actions, and other times when it is the fault of the company he works for. I think we all understand the difference, and this discussion is about the companys. Don't take things personally that do not apply to you, and perhaps you will get into a lot fewer arguements.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Ummm...

I am not IN an argument. Looks like TWA69 is in an argument, and not one that I am involved with.

What I had to say was evenly worded, didn't insult anyone, and didn't degenerate into name-calling.

>>>There are times when we might be upset at an individual pilot for his actions, and other times when it is the fault of the company he works for. <<<

With the above statement you make my argument FOR me. I don't know who you work for, but if it's a W/O, you have no reason to be upset with MY company. The woes of the W/O USAirways carriers are not caused by contract carriers... Who signed these agreements? USAirways? ALPA? If you are pissed at what's happening at Airways, look in your own back yard, not across the street at another company. THAT is my point.

 

[Guam360]

Ornstein is related to Lorenzo.
Lorenzo strated "New York Air" didn't he? Yes.


way to go Brian!!

 

[surplus1]

Since ALPA is creating the start-up Potomac (MidAtlantic Airways), which is just like Freedom and which will do pretty much the same thing that NY Air did, does that mean that Woerth and Beebe are related to Lorenzo also?

 

[surplus1]

Re: Oh Boy - Here we go again

Surplus1 is right about LOA 81 changing the code share restriction. Mesa is free to operate 70/90 seat RJs for America West Express now. It is too bad the Ornstein is going ahead with Freedom Air though.

Why is it too bad that Ornstein is going ahead with Freedom? Isn't ALPA and the USAirMEC going ahead with Potomac? What's the difference? And please, spare me the part about Potomac recognizing ALPA. There's more than one fox loose in the hen house and only one of them answers to the name of Ornstein. The other two live in D.C. and Pittsburgh.

Being on the other side of the fence, I have watched PDT, ALG, PSA benefit enormously at the expense of the mainline over the last 12 years. They have taken our routes and not offered us jobs while on furlough.

That is absolutely not a true statement and if you are really a AAA pilot, you very well know that unless you've had your head buried in the "it doesn't affect me" sand trap.

This time the mainline pilots have fought hard enough to ensure they they get some of the jobs that are going away from the mainline. Sorry that it will adversely affect pilots at the wholly owneds but there are 1070 furloughed USAirways pilots already and probably more to follow and since it is mainline routes that are being flown with these new jets it should be mainline pilots flying them.

I don't think anyone (certainly not me) is complaining about you trying to get some of the new flying for your furloughed pilots. What's wrong is not what you're doing but HOW you're doing it.

You are doing it with total disregard for how it affects your fellow pilots at other airlines that work for the same company that you work for. That behavior is wrotten to the core. I don't blame individual USAir pilots, but I do blame ALPA and I do blame your USAir MEC.

There are far better ways to solve the problem yet your leaders have demonstrated (again) that you care nothing about anyone but yourselves. Yet, you seem to think that others should be sympathetic to your plight. The actions of your leaders are converting the normal sympathy of others into the same thoughtless behavior that your leaders and ALPA's leaders are demonstrating.

I sincerely hope that you find no suckers at Mesa, TSA or Chq or CCair that will fall for your groups willingness to take advantage of others for your own selfish benefit. I don't care if you fly ALL the new jets, but don't shaft other people in the process. Find a way to do it that doesn't require that. Yes, there's a right way to do it and, if your Company really needs those aircraft as bad as they say they do, you can both get it done the right way.

Unfortunately the people with the power to do something to solve the problems and to do the right thing, don't write on these forum boards. Just as they are silent here, they are silent everywhere else. They have abdicated their responsibility to do something meaningful and instead dedicate their time to finding ways to step on other pilots or to aid those that do.

It is nothing short of shameful and a disgrace to the once good name of the Air Line Pilots Association.

Yes, I'm angry. Not at you or people like you, for you too are the victims of blind and incompetent leaders. You just haven't figured that out yet, but the day will come when you do.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Hi guys:

I knew my post would stir some good rhetoric but it had to be done so that the thinking of all sides could be examined.

To Jetprop:

When I say the Wholly Owned's have benefitted enormously over the years I am referring to the past decade and more. Heck, go look at the Henson/Piemont website. In 1968 it was Henson that replaced Alleghany ( USAirways ) service to Salisbury, MD. That was the beginning of a long trend. It accelerated in the late 1980s and early 1990s. It was Henson that replaced USAir F-28s serving cities in the Southeast and Florida. USAir had just furloughed hundreds of pilots and Henson was hiring, but they sure didn't hire many furloughed mainline pilots then. Henson/Piedmont grew from 33 to 57 Dash 8s in that time while the mainline shrank. This while 283 USAir ( ways ) pilots remained on furlough for up to 8 years.


"We were allocated thin markets. Short haul heavy lift operations. Markets where a 737-400 was operating with 30-40 pax each leg and losing money. Why not place a Dash-8 on the route IE: CLT-AVL and operate at a profit. The time difference between a Dash and a 737 is minimal; I timed it once-five minutes difference. "

That is actually a great example of the incompetent management at USAirways. Piedmont ( the original one ) operated that route with 727s and 737s with 6 or more round trips per day and made money hand over fist. It was USAir that destroyed the route with their incompetent marketing and poor customer service. When they messed it up badly enough the only recourse was to put smaller aircraft on the route. The same thing was done over and over with cities in Florida and throughout the Eastern and Western United States.

Surplus1:

I am happy that it is different this time and the wholly owned's, or at least some of them are hiring furloughed USAirways pilots. My remark was in reference to last time, I should have made that more clear.

Jet Prop:

"If am correct Gangwall offered ML 60 RJ's a few years back and the offer was rejected because U pilots didn't want to fly for "those pay rates." "

You are not correct, it might have been discussed but no offer was ever made.

Starting in 1999 the two sides began negotiating about more than 35 RJs allowed at the Express carriers. The position of the MEC was that they should go to mainline as a first choice, to the wholly owneds as a second choice, and the affiliates as a distant last. The problem then was the same as it is now, the company just won't negotiate in good faith. They just send a fax that says , " here is the deal, you have one week to accept it or else". So there is no negotiation. Then comes the wonderful (sarcasm) United buy out and all negotiating in reference to RJs stops. All of a sudden they weren't important anymore. Over a year and a half later the buy out collapses and all of a sudden the company needs 400 RJs to survive. The MEC was ready, willing, and able to negotiate in that year and a half but the company didn't want anything to do with that talk. So now Gangwal says that they need 400 RJs and they don't have the money to buy them so they have to go to the affiliates.

My point being that the USAirways pilots have been trying all along to get the RJs at either mainline or the wholly owneds. It is the company that puts us in a position of having to make a bad deal or a worse deal. The Potomac/Mid-Atlantic deal isn't the best by far but it is the one that will allow furloughed USAirways pilots to have jobs.

 

[TWA69]

EVERYBODY,

I don't have a problem with Midatlantic providing jobs for the furloughed USair mainline pilots, I think that is great. What I do have a problem with is the fact that they are furloughing the WO's pilots in order to do so. Those pilots have family's and bills just as much as the mainline guys. Those guys don't deserve it!!! Just my thoughts, I think US air ALPA should take that into consideration. They are represting the WHOLE pilot groups... Right?

 

[Pooh Marks]

Typhoon pilot,

Put the crack pipe down!

You have got to be kidding me when you try and paint all of us this rosy picture of the wholly-owneds.

I have been at ALG for 4 years and the only new routes we have gotten were to replace Commutair routes after they left for Continental. We might have gotten a FEW mainline routes, but they were short haul routes (PIT-CRW) that certainly don't need MD-80's flying 17 pax on them, as I used to experience.

ML can't fly RJs with their high cost structure! Its not just the pilots, its every labor group from mechanics, FAs, ramp agents, etc. Express labor groups make MUCH LESS than ML's do. Wise up, the profit margin for RJs isn't based solely on the pilot's salaries. That's why MidAtlantic will fly them. They will pay every labor group what they want...Express wages with Express work rules.

I'm all for ML pilots getting RJ jobs, believe me. But its at the expense of the WO's! ALG is projecting 50% of its seniority list to be furloughed by next summer. If they are just going to park Dash8s as their leases expire (which they've already done to 4 Dashes) AND we have no replacement aircraft on the horizon AND no flow-thru with ML or even MidAtlantic, then the picture becomes clear and not as rosy as you paint it.
Mainline pilots are going to be flying RJs at the expense of their ALPA brethren at the WOs.

My solution (which is open to criticism, debate, and correction):
1. Merge the 3 WOs, with an integrated list
2. Create MidAtlantic, with ML pilots at the top of the seniority list.
3. Merge 3 WOs with MidAtlantic, putting WO pilots behind the ML guys
4. Now you have one airline, MidAtlantic, with 2000+ pilots, with flow-thru to ML
5. Acquire their projected 200-400 RJs, with provision that every Dash or Dornier parked must be replaced with an RJ.

One airline, one President, one training department, one scheduling dept, etc.

Why wouldn't this work? Somebody please show me the error in my thinking. Maybe I'm an idiot, but it kind of makes sense to me.

 

[JetProp]

PM,
I think your idea has merit. Looking at some numbers:
(open to correction)
Let's say under your plan 370 RJ's are brought in under one seniority list staffed at 8 crews per plane:
370 x 8 = 2960 pilot positions.
minus 1073 ML furloughees
minus 1200 WO pilots
Rem. 687 new positions
The new positions could be offered to pilots operating under the U flag in some sort of preferential hiring status. Implement a bilateral flow through based on DOH senority. Ie flow up when senority allows or pass and forfeit. Also, Creation of a standardized system of SOP's and checklisits to be used from top to bottom to enhance safety.

This would
A. Take care of ML furloughees
B. Give WO pilots job security/RJ's
C. Resolve alter ego issues
D. Keep corporate profits within U group.
C. Pilots would come in under a potentially better contract with a flow through provision. Take the best of ALG/PSA/PDT contracts and bring in under one contract.
D. Create a large unified pilot group-"one goal, one voice".

Regards, Jetprop

 

[Pooh Marks]

The lack of "One goal, one voice" is what is killing (or has killed) this company. So many like workgroups are at war with each other now.

I totally disagree that multiple (and smaller) workgroups are easier for ML management to push around. I believe its a double-edged sword, while management can allow one workgroup to threaten a strike, they always have more of the same workgroups willing to pick up the slack in their absence.
But for us, we have multiple carriers within the U group to compare and contrast contracts with.
We need unified employees under unified contracts, across the board, in order to save this airline.
I have NEVER felt like I worked for USAirways, just Allegheny Airlines.

I have worked under unions before, I have seen unions, I knew unions, and ALPA...you're no union.

Say the word aloud: "U-n-i-o-n". Are we united?

 

[Vrefus]

Folks,

Excuse me for the seemingly stupid question that I am about to ask. With the U stock price sitting in the sub $3.00 range and talks of chapter 11 possibly looming, how does U go out and purchase upwards of 300 or so RJs for the MidAtlantic subsidiary?

Seems to me that for now, until U is able to get their own house in order they need the contract carriers that already have the RJs and have already done the investing in equipment, support, training, etc. I'm not a rocket scientist but I do know that starting an airline and then ramping it up just in behind the scenes costs is a huge endeavor and is not done by the "fall of this year".

Any input would be gladly accepted. Thanx.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

If the U gets the $1 Billion gov't loan, they can buy the jets.

If they don't, they'll probably go Chapter 11, and I would think their affiliated commuters have a better chance at getting more/all of the RJs, as they can afford them more easily than the U, as the last poster noted.

Cliff
GB,WI

 

[NEDude]

Ummm

When people go out and buy a car, they usually do not plunk down cash for the entire purchase price. Yes some do, but most do not.

The same works for airlines. Airways, in fact nobody, plunks down a few billion dollars cash for airplanes. They are almost always either leased or financed. If Airways can show a leasing or finance company a good business plan involving the integration of RJs and can provide reasonable assurances that payments will be made, they can probably get the airplanes. They don't need the cash.

 

[surplus1]

The thing that frustrates me most of all is that most ALG/PDT/PSA pilots are silent and don't seem to realize what ALPA and the USAir MEC are really doing to them.

Most regional pilots in general, if you base it on these forums, appear to be unaware of what's really happening and seem willing to just bend over and take it without defending themselves. The longer the shaft the more they seem willing to bend forward.

I have no problem with anyone that ultimately wants a job at a major airline. What bothers me is that most don't seem to realize that leting yourself get shafted isn't going to get that mainline job one day sooner.