Orenstein and US Airways

[surplus1]

Re: Oh Boy - Here we go again

Surplus1 is right about LOA 81 changing the code share restriction. Mesa is free to operate 70/90 seat RJs for America West Express now. It is too bad the Ornstein is going ahead with Freedom Air though.

Why is it too bad that Ornstein is going ahead with Freedom? Isn't ALPA and the USAirMEC going ahead with Potomac? What's the difference? And please, spare me the part about Potomac recognizing ALPA. There's more than one fox loose in the hen house and only one of them answers to the name of Ornstein. The other two live in D.C. and Pittsburgh.

Being on the other side of the fence, I have watched PDT, ALG, PSA benefit enormously at the expense of the mainline over the last 12 years. They have taken our routes and not offered us jobs while on furlough.

That is absolutely not a true statement and if you are really a AAA pilot, you very well know that unless you've had your head buried in the "it doesn't affect me" sand trap.

This time the mainline pilots have fought hard enough to ensure they they get some of the jobs that are going away from the mainline. Sorry that it will adversely affect pilots at the wholly owneds but there are 1070 furloughed USAirways pilots already and probably more to follow and since it is mainline routes that are being flown with these new jets it should be mainline pilots flying them.

I don't think anyone (certainly not me) is complaining about you trying to get some of the new flying for your furloughed pilots. What's wrong is not what you're doing but HOW you're doing it.

You are doing it with total disregard for how it affects your fellow pilots at other airlines that work for the same company that you work for. That behavior is wrotten to the core. I don't blame individual USAir pilots, but I do blame ALPA and I do blame your USAir MEC.

There are far better ways to solve the problem yet your leaders have demonstrated (again) that you care nothing about anyone but yourselves. Yet, you seem to think that others should be sympathetic to your plight. The actions of your leaders are converting the normal sympathy of others into the same thoughtless behavior that your leaders and ALPA's leaders are demonstrating.

I sincerely hope that you find no suckers at Mesa, TSA or Chq or CCair that will fall for your groups willingness to take advantage of others for your own selfish benefit. I don't care if you fly ALL the new jets, but don't shaft other people in the process. Find a way to do it that doesn't require that. Yes, there's a right way to do it and, if your Company really needs those aircraft as bad as they say they do, you can both get it done the right way.

Unfortunately the people with the power to do something to solve the problems and to do the right thing, don't write on these forum boards. Just as they are silent here, they are silent everywhere else. They have abdicated their responsibility to do something meaningful and instead dedicate their time to finding ways to step on other pilots or to aid those that do.

It is nothing short of shameful and a disgrace to the once good name of the Air Line Pilots Association.

Yes, I'm angry. Not at you or people like you, for you too are the victims of blind and incompetent leaders. You just haven't figured that out yet, but the day will come when you do.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Hi guys:

I knew my post would stir some good rhetoric but it had to be done so that the thinking of all sides could be examined.

To Jetprop:

When I say the Wholly Owned's have benefitted enormously over the years I am referring to the past decade and more. Heck, go look at the Henson/Piemont website. In 1968 it was Henson that replaced Alleghany ( USAirways ) service to Salisbury, MD. That was the beginning of a long trend. It accelerated in the late 1980s and early 1990s. It was Henson that replaced USAir F-28s serving cities in the Southeast and Florida. USAir had just furloughed hundreds of pilots and Henson was hiring, but they sure didn't hire many furloughed mainline pilots then. Henson/Piedmont grew from 33 to 57 Dash 8s in that time while the mainline shrank. This while 283 USAir ( ways ) pilots remained on furlough for up to 8 years.


"We were allocated thin markets. Short haul heavy lift operations. Markets where a 737-400 was operating with 30-40 pax each leg and losing money. Why not place a Dash-8 on the route IE: CLT-AVL and operate at a profit. The time difference between a Dash and a 737 is minimal; I timed it once-five minutes difference. "

That is actually a great example of the incompetent management at USAirways. Piedmont ( the original one ) operated that route with 727s and 737s with 6 or more round trips per day and made money hand over fist. It was USAir that destroyed the route with their incompetent marketing and poor customer service. When they messed it up badly enough the only recourse was to put smaller aircraft on the route. The same thing was done over and over with cities in Florida and throughout the Eastern and Western United States.

Surplus1:

I am happy that it is different this time and the wholly owned's, or at least some of them are hiring furloughed USAirways pilots. My remark was in reference to last time, I should have made that more clear.

Jet Prop:

"If am correct Gangwall offered ML 60 RJ's a few years back and the offer was rejected because U pilots didn't want to fly for "those pay rates." "

You are not correct, it might have been discussed but no offer was ever made.

Starting in 1999 the two sides began negotiating about more than 35 RJs allowed at the Express carriers. The position of the MEC was that they should go to mainline as a first choice, to the wholly owneds as a second choice, and the affiliates as a distant last. The problem then was the same as it is now, the company just won't negotiate in good faith. They just send a fax that says , " here is the deal, you have one week to accept it or else". So there is no negotiation. Then comes the wonderful (sarcasm) United buy out and all negotiating in reference to RJs stops. All of a sudden they weren't important anymore. Over a year and a half later the buy out collapses and all of a sudden the company needs 400 RJs to survive. The MEC was ready, willing, and able to negotiate in that year and a half but the company didn't want anything to do with that talk. So now Gangwal says that they need 400 RJs and they don't have the money to buy them so they have to go to the affiliates.

My point being that the USAirways pilots have been trying all along to get the RJs at either mainline or the wholly owneds. It is the company that puts us in a position of having to make a bad deal or a worse deal. The Potomac/Mid-Atlantic deal isn't the best by far but it is the one that will allow furloughed USAirways pilots to have jobs.

 

[TWA69]

EVERYBODY,

I don't have a problem with Midatlantic providing jobs for the furloughed USair mainline pilots, I think that is great. What I do have a problem with is the fact that they are furloughing the WO's pilots in order to do so. Those pilots have family's and bills just as much as the mainline guys. Those guys don't deserve it!!! Just my thoughts, I think US air ALPA should take that into consideration. They are represting the WHOLE pilot groups... Right?

 

[Pooh Marks]

Typhoon pilot,

Put the crack pipe down!

You have got to be kidding me when you try and paint all of us this rosy picture of the wholly-owneds.

I have been at ALG for 4 years and the only new routes we have gotten were to replace Commutair routes after they left for Continental. We might have gotten a FEW mainline routes, but they were short haul routes (PIT-CRW) that certainly don't need MD-80's flying 17 pax on them, as I used to experience.

ML can't fly RJs with their high cost structure! Its not just the pilots, its every labor group from mechanics, FAs, ramp agents, etc. Express labor groups make MUCH LESS than ML's do. Wise up, the profit margin for RJs isn't based solely on the pilot's salaries. That's why MidAtlantic will fly them. They will pay every labor group what they want...Express wages with Express work rules.

I'm all for ML pilots getting RJ jobs, believe me. But its at the expense of the WO's! ALG is projecting 50% of its seniority list to be furloughed by next summer. If they are just going to park Dash8s as their leases expire (which they've already done to 4 Dashes) AND we have no replacement aircraft on the horizon AND no flow-thru with ML or even MidAtlantic, then the picture becomes clear and not as rosy as you paint it.
Mainline pilots are going to be flying RJs at the expense of their ALPA brethren at the WOs.

My solution (which is open to criticism, debate, and correction):
1. Merge the 3 WOs, with an integrated list
2. Create MidAtlantic, with ML pilots at the top of the seniority list.
3. Merge 3 WOs with MidAtlantic, putting WO pilots behind the ML guys
4. Now you have one airline, MidAtlantic, with 2000+ pilots, with flow-thru to ML
5. Acquire their projected 200-400 RJs, with provision that every Dash or Dornier parked must be replaced with an RJ.

One airline, one President, one training department, one scheduling dept, etc.

Why wouldn't this work? Somebody please show me the error in my thinking. Maybe I'm an idiot, but it kind of makes sense to me.

 

[JetProp]

PM,
I think your idea has merit. Looking at some numbers:
(open to correction)
Let's say under your plan 370 RJ's are brought in under one seniority list staffed at 8 crews per plane:
370 x 8 = 2960 pilot positions.
minus 1073 ML furloughees
minus 1200 WO pilots
Rem. 687 new positions
The new positions could be offered to pilots operating under the U flag in some sort of preferential hiring status. Implement a bilateral flow through based on DOH senority. Ie flow up when senority allows or pass and forfeit. Also, Creation of a standardized system of SOP's and checklisits to be used from top to bottom to enhance safety.

This would
A. Take care of ML furloughees
B. Give WO pilots job security/RJ's
C. Resolve alter ego issues
D. Keep corporate profits within U group.
C. Pilots would come in under a potentially better contract with a flow through provision. Take the best of ALG/PSA/PDT contracts and bring in under one contract.
D. Create a large unified pilot group-"one goal, one voice".

Regards, Jetprop

 

[Pooh Marks]

The lack of "One goal, one voice" is what is killing (or has killed) this company. So many like workgroups are at war with each other now.

I totally disagree that multiple (and smaller) workgroups are easier for ML management to push around. I believe its a double-edged sword, while management can allow one workgroup to threaten a strike, they always have more of the same workgroups willing to pick up the slack in their absence.
But for us, we have multiple carriers within the U group to compare and contrast contracts with.
We need unified employees under unified contracts, across the board, in order to save this airline.
I have NEVER felt like I worked for USAirways, just Allegheny Airlines.

I have worked under unions before, I have seen unions, I knew unions, and ALPA...you're no union.

Say the word aloud: "U-n-i-o-n". Are we united?

 

[Vrefus]

Folks,

Excuse me for the seemingly stupid question that I am about to ask. With the U stock price sitting in the sub $3.00 range and talks of chapter 11 possibly looming, how does U go out and purchase upwards of 300 or so RJs for the MidAtlantic subsidiary?

Seems to me that for now, until U is able to get their own house in order they need the contract carriers that already have the RJs and have already done the investing in equipment, support, training, etc. I'm not a rocket scientist but I do know that starting an airline and then ramping it up just in behind the scenes costs is a huge endeavor and is not done by the "fall of this year".

Any input would be gladly accepted. Thanx.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

If the U gets the $1 Billion gov't loan, they can buy the jets.

If they don't, they'll probably go Chapter 11, and I would think their affiliated commuters have a better chance at getting more/all of the RJs, as they can afford them more easily than the U, as the last poster noted.

Cliff
GB,WI

 

[NEDude]

Ummm

When people go out and buy a car, they usually do not plunk down cash for the entire purchase price. Yes some do, but most do not.

The same works for airlines. Airways, in fact nobody, plunks down a few billion dollars cash for airplanes. They are almost always either leased or financed. If Airways can show a leasing or finance company a good business plan involving the integration of RJs and can provide reasonable assurances that payments will be made, they can probably get the airplanes. They don't need the cash.

 

[surplus1]

The thing that frustrates me most of all is that most ALG/PDT/PSA pilots are silent and don't seem to realize what ALPA and the USAir MEC are really doing to them.

Most regional pilots in general, if you base it on these forums, appear to be unaware of what's really happening and seem willing to just bend over and take it without defending themselves. The longer the shaft the more they seem willing to bend forward.

I have no problem with anyone that ultimately wants a job at a major airline. What bothers me is that most don't seem to realize that leting yourself get shafted isn't going to get that mainline job one day sooner.