Options if you have no 121 PIC

[clr4theapch]

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[BRA]

As more regional CA's become lifers, there are more and more FO's have been stuck in the right seat with no chance of upgrading for years now. Now that Delta has stopped hiring, are there any other places, cargo or passenger, that are hiring/accepting applications that don't require 121 PIC?

As for as I know Allegiant seems to always have one in a new hire class that has zero turbine PIC. I would assume that pilot has a rec. letter but I am not sure about that.

 

[johnpeace]

I don't get the requirement for TPIC...

How come I'm qualified to act as an FO on an RJ and have years of experience serving as an FO on an RJ, but to serve as an FO on a Boeing I need jet PIC time?

That doesn't make any sense, they're hiring FOs, right? It'll be 10-12 years before anyone new FO makes Captain there anyway.

My guess is that'll be subject to change when the available positions exceed the number of current RJ captains willing to leave to take them...if that ever happens.

 

[Flyer1015]

I don't get the requirement for TPIC...

How come I'm qualified to act as an FO on an RJ and have years of experience serving as an FO on an RJ, but to serve as an FO on a Boeing I need jet PIC time?

That doesn't make any sense, they're hiring FOs, right? It'll be 10-12 years before anyone new FO makes Captain there anyway.

My guess is that'll be subject to change when the available positions exceed the number of current RJ captains willing to leave to take them...if that ever happens.

If you're saying that, then you haven't upgraded yet. While you may think it's the "same job, just a different seat" in reality it's not that simple. You will have to make key decisions. People will come to you as the final answer on something. Lots of things will be your call. Of course, you have your crew for help as well. As for majors, they are not hiring FOs, as they say, they are hiring "future Captains."

 

[FurloughedAgain]

How come I'm qualified to act as an FO on an RJ and have years of experience serving as an FO on an RJ, but to serve as an FO on a Boeing I need jet PIC time?.

I generally agree with this statement, maybe not so much for the relatively low-time RJ first officer but for the pilot who finds him or herself unqualified for a position due to the industry turmoil that has existed over the last decade or so. For example, US Airways has first officers who have been Boeing 737 first officers for 15+ years. Through no fault of their own they haven't been able to upgrade but they're hardly unqualified to do so.

Pilots who were hired at places such as ATA, Vanguard, Eastwind, ProAir... and for one reason or another found themselves bouncing from position to position as they struggle to cobble together a career.

Or pilots who were hired by the majors in the late 90's when hiring was going gangbusters, but who didn't have 1000 turbine PIC (which was required by only a few carriers at the time). The rules to the game changed midstream for them and all it takes is a few furloughs to put one well behind the power curve.

I have about 10,000 TT, 3 PIC type-ratings, over 1000 hours in the 737, another 1000 in the DC9, and time in a variety of commuter aircraft including the CRJ, D328, SF340, and Bae3101...

...but only about 1200 PIC turbine -- it's very recent, and it's not Part 121. So where would someone like me go to build that time? Is it realistic for me to apply at a regional (again) and hopefully stick around there long enough to upgrade and build that flight time? It's a little bit frustrating, made even more so with a mortgage and a family. I've been flying professionally for 15+ years and here I am, wondering how to become qualified to be competitive for these jobs. How do I compete with a CRJ Captain who has been logging 800 hours PICT each year for the last 6 or 7 years?

That SIC time should be worth something. A good FO doesn't just sit over there keeping the seat warm while waiting for the clock to tick down. He or she is an active and participatory member of the flight deck crew. Unfortunately (for me) the time requirement won't change. I can only hope that my other qualifications help me to stand out from the crowd of CRJ Captains and that I look intriguing enough on paper for someone to want to hear a funny story or two.

 

[johnpeace]

If you're saying that, then you haven't upgraded yet. While you may think it's the "same job, just a different seat" in reality it's not that simple. You will have to make key decisions. People will come to you as the final answer on something. Lots of things will be your call. Of course, you have your crew for help as well. As for majors, they are not hiring FOs, as they say, they are hiring "future Captains."

You're talking about going from FO to Captain.

I'm talking about going from FO at ASA to FO at Allegiant/Airtran/Delta/Wherever...

Same job, the only thing different is the plane.

Why do I need 1000 hrs of TPIC to go be an FO on another airplane type?

 

[Flyer1015]

You're talking about going from FO to Captain.

I'm talking about going from FO at ASA to FO at Allegiant/Airtran/Delta/Wherever...

Same job, the only thing different is the plane.

Why do I need 1000 hrs of TPIC to go be an FO on another airplane type?

As I stated, it's the mindset for the majors. At all the places you mentioned, Allegiant/Airtran/Delta/Wherever, they are hiring future Captains. You're being hired as an entry-level FO, but they are hiring a 'future Captain.' It's worth mentioning though that the *minimum* requirements at Allegiant and Delta do not require PIC. Airtran, when they were hiring, required 500 hrs Part 121 PIC (or military equivalent).

 

[bri5150]

You're talking about going from FO to Captain.

I'm talking about going from FO at ASA to FO at Allegiant/Airtran/Delta/Wherever...

Same job, the only thing different is the plane.

Why do I need 1000 hrs of TPIC to go be an FO on another airplane type?

Whoops, what flyer said ^. It really chaps my hide when people with no PIC get hired at "next step" airlines. I didn't believe it before I upgraded, but it is definately a different animal in the left seat. By default, I am a better applicant than someone with no PIC because they have never done it. At least my pax and fo's have survived me for a few years, that has to count for more than someone that has never done the job. /entitlement mode off... Wait, did I just agree with Flyer? Holy crap!!!

 

[johnpeace]

Sure...you're a better applicant because of your PIC time.

But it's going to be 10-15 freaking years before you upgrade at your next carrier...how good do you really have to be to be an FO for another 15 years?

Like I said, this (and more) will probably change if/when they run out of RJ captains to hire...

 

[damnflyboy]

It's just a filter. When they choose to remove it out of desperation, they will.

 

[Willy21]

It's just a filter. When they choose to remove it out of desperation, they will.

As they say, winner winner chicken dinner. Most people believe that the demand for pilots will far out pace the supply in the next 5-10 years. If this becomes true the legacy carriers will have to make a decision, pass on a 5,000 hour f/o because he/she has never been a pic, or hire him/her because he might get hired by one of you competitors before he/she can acquire the 1,000 hours of turbine pic. True there are a lot of regional captains out there with thousands upon thousands of turbine pic hours, but the pool of pilots willing to leave and as a result take a pay cut, lose QOL, become junior again.... is not as deep as some may think.

As long as you have the connections, a good training history, and a couple thousand hours of turbine time you will be marketable. This is not 1999 when you could go zero time to the left seat of an RJ in 36 months. There are many quality pilots in the right seat that are ready to upgrade. The only reason they have not is the seniority system we play under.

Best of luck y'all.

 

[Captainzero1]

Go East young man, Cathay Pacific.

 

[Wing Twist]

Go East young man, Cathay Pacific.

Unfortunately you will pay for it. Current terms for joiners are SO position only while living in HKG without a housing allowance (previously included in your conditions and an absolute necessity to survive in HKG). Prospects for bases are poor to nil. If you are even thinking about it be prepared to make a long term commitment to live in Asia on mediocre pay.

 

[prtyprtyprncss]

1-800-TruckMasters....yeah, I think that was it....

 

[Sandstorm]

..... True there are a lot of regional captains out there with thousands upon thousands of turbine pic hours, but the pool of pilots willing to leave and as a result take a pay cut, lose QOL, become junior again.... is not as deep as some may think.

Man, I hope you are right. As someone who has been at two different regionals over the last 10+ years I am more than willing to take a short term pay cut to have a better QOL and make more $$ long term.