Open Skies US/EU Approved

[flyburg]

Huh? I bet some Skyteam members would allow us to borrow some.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Sure General, just show us the money

A skyteam buddy

 

[Lear70]

A LOT of us WERE donating to the PAC. Well, the PAC won't see another dime from me anymore. I don't know about the others. No sense in supporting a weak organization where they won't represent the majority.

BINGO!

I've said that for the last several years. ALPA and ALPA-PAC haven't been able to do much of ANYTHING that I considered important, and my own Association is actively pushing agendas not supported by the majority of our pilots. Why should I throw perfectly good money away?

No, thanks.

Everyone seems to be skipping the question OK3 asked. How does more trans-atlantic flying hurt our domistic system? I am with him, I must be missing something.

You are.

Open skies isn't just about Transatlantic routes, it's permission for them to do POINT TO POINT inside our domestic system once they're here.

It will take 5-7 years before they're doing it widespread, but just think Branson's Virgin America, the low posted pay scales for that, and how many pilots are just lining up to put in resumes. Now imagine 3 or 4 more large branded carriers in the U.S. doing that head to head against DAL, SWA, etc with a labor CASM about 60-70% less than CURRENT pay rates (which already suck).

FedEx and UPS are, for the moment, the least affected because current regulations prohibit the majority share of ownership in a ground-based company in the U.S., thus keeping them from having shipping terminals, shops, etc where packages could be dropped off, handled, and received domestically (not to mention it would be prohibitively cost-intensive to try to go head to head with those guys to set up that infrastructure).

The passenger carriers, however, are pretty well fu*ked.

 

[flyburg]

Well,

I don't see it that way. Look at NWA. The Netherlands have had an open skies agreement with the US since the early nineties. It means that KLM still only flies to points in the states without onward travel, however NWA has been flying to AMS and onward to India and the likes, picking up pax in AMS.

Also what do you mean by lower wages for the European carriers. Seems to me that with all the hits the legacies have taken that the wages at the legacies in Europe are now higher than the wages in the states. I am not up on the scales in the states but I think somewhere I saw scales for a NWA B747 Cpt posted as 140.000. At KLM a Cpt B747 makes 220.000 euros which would be the equivalent to USD 286.000.

Also the market in the states is pretty much saturated, where as in Europe with all the upcoming economies of the former eastern block/Balkan countries there are still a lot of untouched opportunities.

Seems to me whenever there is a change in law, guys are screeming how unfair it all is to the good o'll United States family just trying to make a living. Well guess what.... we have the same concerns about the the US carriers over here. Hstory shows that US carriers have flown more overhere(cabbotage( fifth freedom of the air)) than vice versa.

greetings

A skyteam member

 

[AA717driver]

There's a pilot shortage??? I'll call flat out BS on that.

Read it again. I said foreign. Any of us could go to China, SIN, Japan, Emirates, Qatar, should I go on? He!!, if the EU wasn't so damned protectionist, we could be a direct entry captain at EasyJet (at least a couple of years ago). And, there are ways to get on at Ryannair. These are not crappy jobs. The JAL, Cathay, ANA and others pay well and have good (not necessarily great) benefits.

I didn't even mention India--the employment situation is nuts there. Just pull up the Parc Aviation site. I'm not saying this will last forever but it will go on for awhile. TC

 

[flyburg]

Read it again. I said foreign. Any of us could go to China, SIN, Japan, Emirates, Qatar, should I go on? He!!, if the EU wasn't so danged protectionist, we could be a direct entry captain at EasyJet (at least a couple of years ago). And, there are ways to get on at Ryannair. These are not crappy jobs. The JAL, Cathay, ANA and others pay well and have good (not necessarily great) benefits.

I didn't even mention India--the employment situation is nuts there. Just pull up the Parc Aviation site. I'm not saying this will last forever but it will go on for awhile. TC

AA717driver,

I see what you mean and you're right about the pilot shortage, however I few remarks to you and some of the other posters

The open skies agreement is between the US and EU,. Some posters have voiced concerns about cheap labor coming from all over the world. This is not an issue since the agreement once again is between US and EU.

European danged protectionist.................I have to take issue with that. It is just as hard for an European guy to work in the US as vice versa. To work in the US you have to have a greencard, how do you get one...well pretty much only through marriage or the lottery(I grant you that, we don't have that overhere). To get a EU working permit you pretty much have the same options. But then, as a green card holder , lately it's almost impossible to get a job at a major due to background checks. I dare say that the proces of getting the JAA licenses is less difficult than getting the background checks in the US. When pilot shortage hit the EU it is a lot easier to bypass the laws(recently Ryan air had shortages and were actually looking for US 737 rated guys).
That would NEVER happen in the US.

For someone taking the time to get the JAA licences it would be a lot easier to get a job at a EU major airline when there is a shortage than vice versa.
I know what I'm talking about, I used to have a GC and worked for CHQ. On a regular basis I got the, you work here we can't work overthere argument, thrown at me. There is no way I could get a job with any af the majors without getting the 4 year college degree ( although my education was much higher) and without being a American citizen. Well guess what, there are a lot more Americans/Canadians(percentage wise) working overhere than the other way around( at the majors that is)

But back to the topic EU/US open skies agreement.

greetings

 

[General Lee]

Well,

I don't see it that way. Look at NWA. The Netherlands have had an open skies agreement with the US since the early nineties. It means that KLM still only flies to points in the states without onward travel, however NWA has been flying to AMS and onward to India and the likes, picking up pax in AMS.

Also what do you mean by lower wages for the European carriers. Seems to me that with all the hits the legacies have taken that the wages at the legacies in Europe are now higher than the wages in the states. I am not up on the scales in the states but I think somewhere I saw scales for a NWA B747 Cpt posted as 140.000. At KLM a Cpt B747 makes 220.000 euros which would be the equivalent to USD 286.000.

Also the market in the states is pretty much saturated, where as in Europe with all the upcoming economies of the former eastern block/Balkan countries there are still a lot of untouched opportunities.

Seems to me whenever there is a change in law, guys are screeming how unfair it all is to the good o'll United States family just trying to make a living. Well guess what.... we have the same concerns about the the US carriers over here. Hstory shows that US carriers have flown more overhere(cabbotage( fifth freedom of the air)) than vice versa.

greetings

A skyteam member

Can you give me a CURRENT example of a US carrier flying to the EU and continuing on to another city in the EU? There are none. We have one airline, NWA, that flies from a EU city (AMS) onto India. Delta now flies nonstop from JFK. We don't have any plans to fly INTRA EU, or even INTRA England or INTRA Germany, but your EU wants to try to fly within the US someday, because they see some potential growth inside the US and less inside the EU. Also, we may have finally broke down the Heathrow fortress. Funny how a new country in Eastern Europe or a "Stan" (like Krigistan) can get slots at LHR, and one of the biggest airlines in the world (like DL or CAL) could not. Yes, it was agreed upon, but British Air took advantage of that, and now they will finally face the music. Have we slot constrained our major airports and left out any airports for British Air or KLM? No. (KLM 777s can't fly into LGA or DCA, so that is not an issue)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Lear70]

I don't see it that way. Look at NWA. The Netherlands have had an open skies agreement with the US since the early nineties. It means that KLM still only flies to points in the states without onward travel, however NWA has been flying to AMS and onward to India and the likes, picking up pax in AMS.

That statement tells me you don't understand your own competition in your own marketplace.

I don't give a crap if you guys want to fly here to the U.S., then go on TO ANOTHER COUNTRY. Have at it. That's not what this is about.

Northwest does NOT fly to AMS, then up to London, then over to East Midlands, etc...

THAT would be an accurate comparison; yours is not.

Also what do you mean by lower wages for the European carriers. Seems to me that with all the hits the legacies have taken that the wages at the legacies in Europe are now higher than the wages in the states. I am not up on the scales in the states but I think somewhere I saw scales for a NWA B747 Cpt posted as 140.000. At KLM a Cpt B747 makes 220.000 euros which would be the equivalent to USD 286.000.

We're not worried about KLM. We're worried about the carriers such as Ryan, Branson's Virgin America (which no longer would need a U.S. operating certificate to operate inside the U.S. point to point and has salaries that would drive me out of the market).

Incidentally, a NWA 747 CA makes about $180k a year.

Also the market in the states is pretty much saturated, where as in Europe with all the upcoming economies of the former eastern block/Balkan countries there are still a lot of untouched opportunities.

That isn't stopping Branson, is it?

It wouldn't stop any other European carrier who could come in with those rediculous Ryanesque $19 per leg fares.

Additionally, here in the U.S. we limit the number of seats we sell at our low fares. The Ryan type carriers don't.

It WILL put SEVERE pressure on airline salaries. Wait and see.

Seems to me whenever there is a change in law, guys are screeming how unfair it all is to the good o'll United States family just trying to make a living. Well guess what.... we have the same concerns about the the US carriers over here. Hstory shows that US carriers have flown more overhere(cabbotage( fifth freedom of the air)) than vice versa.

I would like EXACT SPECIFICS.

Please list EXACTLY how cabotage is affecting European carriers, specifically what routes we are taking over INSIDE the U.K.?

The open skies agreement is between the US and EU,. Some posters have voiced concerns about cheap labor coming from all over the world. This is not an issue since the agreement once again is between US and EU.

Nope, just the EU.

European danged protectionist.................I have to take issue with that. It is just as hard for an European guy to work in the US as vice versa.

Absolute CRAP.

A U.S. Citizen can't get a UK Passport, which is required for ANY decent job in the UK. I know, I searched for YEARS after 9/11... No UK passport, no UK job.

However, at the same time, I can name 2 dozen European pilots who were hired on at my carrier here in the U.S.

It's not a level playing field. Deal with it and move on.

I dare say that the proces of getting the JAA licenses is less difficult than getting the background checks in the US. When pilot shortage hit the EU it is a lot easier to bypass the laws(recently Ryan air had shortages and were actually looking for US 737 rated guys).

That would NEVER happen in the US.

Again, you're not comparing apples to apples.

The process of getting the JAA licenses is a LOT harder (and more expensive) than the background checks here.


Second, that bypass only worked for EU citizens.

For someone taking the time to get the JAA licences it would be a lot easier to get a job at a EU major airline when there is a shortage than vice versa.

Hmmm, that's great. If I get my JAA licenses, will you get me hired on a British Airways? KLM?

I thought not.

I know what I'm talking about, I used to have a GC and worked for CHQ. On a regular basis I got the, you work here we can't work overthere argument, thrown at me. There is no way I could get a job with any af the majors without getting the 4 year college degree ( although my education was much higher) and without being a American citizen. Well guess what, there are a lot more Americans/Canadians(percentage wise) working overhere than the other way around( at the majors that is)

[/quote]
Only 3 majors require a 4 year degree.

Obviously you don't know what the hell you're talking about after all.

 

[Phaedrus]

Punked.

 

[flyburg]

That statement tells me you don't understand your own competition in your own marketplace.

I don't give a crap if you guys want to fly here to the U.S., then go on TO ANOTHER COUNTRY. Have at it. That's not what this is about.

Northwest does NOT fly to AMS, then up to London, then over to East Midlands, etc...

THAT would be an accurate comparison; yours is not.


We're not worried about KLM. We're worried about the carriers such as Ryan, Branson's Virgin America (which no longer would need a U.S. operating certificate to operate inside the U.S. point to point and has salaries that would drive me out of the market).

Incidentally, a NWA 747 CA makes about $180k a year.


That isn't stopping Branson, is it?

It wouldn't stop any other European carrier who could come in with those rediculous Ryanesque $19 per leg fares.

Additionally, here in the U.S. we limit the number of seats we sell at our low fares. The Ryan type carriers don't.

It WILL put SEVERE pressure on airline salaries. Wait and see.


I would like EXACT SPECIFICS.

Please list EXACTLY how cabotage is affecting European carriers, specifically what routes we are taking over INSIDE the U.K.?


Nope, just the EU.


Absolute CRAP.

A U.S. Citizen can't get a UK Passport, which is required for ANY decent job in the UK. I know, I searched for YEARS after 9/11... No UK passport, no UK job.

However, at the same time, I can name 2 dozen European pilots who were hired on at my carrier here in the U.S.

It's not a level playing field. Deal with it and move on.


Again, you're not comparing apples to apples.

The process of getting the JAA licenses is a LOT harder (and more expensive) than the background checks here.


Second, that bypass only worked for EU citizens.


Hmmm, that's great. If I get my JAA licenses, will you get me hired on a British Airways? KLM?

I thought not.

Only 3 majors require a 4 year degree.

Obviously you don't know what the hell you're talking about after all. [/quote]


Geez dude, I don't even know where to start. You and I have I complete different outlook on the world. You tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about???

I'll try and start from the beginning

NWA does not fly to x then y then Z. I think this is exactly what the new agreement is about. Fly to one destination then onto the next in Europe. What did you think it was about???


you are not worried about KLM but over Ryan air etc. etc. Funny that Transavia Airlines for the last summers has wet leased Sun Country airlines that operated overhere on their on certificate while every winter Transavia has dry leased A/C to Sun because they couldn't operate in the US without a 121 certificate.


Like I said, I'm not up to date on the NWA payscales, I just read them on here.

Branson: It still remains to be seen whether they are going to make it, mean while it remains open to any US carrier to do the same over here. I know UPS is already interested in buying TNT and getting a base in Liege.

On the subject of passports and JAA licenses, well we just have to disagree. You say you have to have a passport in the EU, I don't ,just the right to work, just like the states. However I have a lot of buddies in the states that don't get hired because they don't have passports.

As for the 4 year collega degree, dude, get real, how many single/married white males get hired without a degree????????

Finally and last, You talk about point to point in the UK, That's not really realistic, it would be like comparing Travel within Indiana or whatever state. If you want to make a serious comparions between EUrope and the EU consider it the united states of Europe, because that's what the open skies agreement is about.

DO YOU REALLY THINK there would be any difference between a US carrier starting up something overhere compared to a EU carrier starting up something overthere???????????.........Think again.

Lastly, having experienced both sides I think I'am little bit more qualified to comment on both sides of the issues than some redneck A'hole that thinks the worls revolves around the US of the A

 

[Phaedrus]

Lastly, having experienced both sides I think I'am little bit more qualified to...

Both sides, eh? Hmmmmm.

 

[flyburg]

Both sides, eh? Hmmmmm.

Ohhh, for crying out loud, having got my licences in Chesapeake VA, instructing for 3 years in OH, then a year and a half with grand aire express in KY before moving on to CHQ for 4 years. then on to KLM for the last 6 years.

What, in your mind qualifies both sides??????????????????

 

[General Lee]

"Lastly, having experienced both sides I think I'am little bit more qualified to comment on both sides of the issues than some redneck A'hole that thinks the worls revolves around the US of the A."



That is typical European aristocratic thinking. Listen here dutchy, everytime your union gets into trouble, we are bailing you out. You are all talk and no show. And, just because you go "both ways" and have experienced it from "both sides" doesn't mean you know what you are talking about. We have ONE thru flight in Europe---NWA flying onto BOM. That's it chief. You can bring up UPS and FedEx, but that is because the only alternative you have is DHL (which is a distant third in the rest of the world), TNT, and the huge French Post. And, Transavia would be sunk without the Sun Countryt dry lease, with less traffic in Europe during the Winter. Next time, bring a real argument with some facts.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[flyburg]

""



That is typical European aristocratic thinking. Listen here dutchy, everytime your union gets into trouble, we are bailing you out. You are all talk and no show. And, just because you go "both ways" and have experienced it from "both sides" doesn't mean you know what you are talking about. We have ONE thru flight in Europe---NWA flying onto BOM. That's it chief. You can bring up UPS and FedEx, but that is because the only alternative you have is DHL (which is a distant third in the rest of the world), TNT, and the huge French Post. Next time, bring a real argument with some facts.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Well General, Gota say, little bit supprised as I thought That you had a slightly more open mind to the rest of the world.

However, could you mind explaining about our union getting into trouble and you guys bailing us out because the last time I checked NWA was furloughing gyus that were then given jobs with KLM, Also the Pilot PP2 deal with we struck with AF is one of a kind. Please explain The real argjument versus the fact in realition wath I said

Kind greatings

 

[Lear70]

I'll try and start from the beginning

NWA does not fly to x then y then Z. I think this is exactly what the new agreement is about. Fly to one destination then onto the next in Europe. What did you think it was about???

You just made my case for me, thanks.

You're absolutely right. NWA does NOT fly to x to y, then on to z INSIDE the U.K.

Under this new law, they would be allowed to. However, they wouldn't WANT to in most cases.

However, now YOUR country's carriers CAN do this inside U.S. soil.

That makes it a SEVERELY unequal agreement. Your government said, "Sure, we'll let you do that", knowing full well no U.S. carrier would want to.

No brainer for EU countries, lose-lose for US airline employees.

you are not worried about KLM but over Ryan air etc. etc. Funny that Transavia Airlines for the last summers has wet leased Sun Country airlines that operated overhere on their on certificate while every winter Transavia has dry leased A/C to Sun because they couldn't operate in the US without a 121 certificate.

What, exactly, was your argument here?

I can't tell, but I think you just made my point again. It's the small airlines that have the ability to run point to point inside the continental U.S. and those small airlines are the ones who have the crappy compensation and work rule packages in the EU.

Branson: It still remains to be seen whether they are going to make it, mean while it remains open to any US carrier to do the same over here. I know UPS is already interested in buying TNT and getting a base in Liege.

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. But let's do that for a second.

You can bring up UPS and FedEx, but that is because the only alternative you have is DHL (which is a distant third in the rest of the world), TNT, and the huge French Post. And, Transavia would be sunk without the Sun Countryt dry lease, with less traffic in Europe during the Winter. Next time, bring a real argument with some facts.

The General makes an excellent point as a sidebar to his main point, and that is that TNT and the French Post will now be able to run their own freight from the EU to anywhere in the U.S.

Question is, will they? At least in THIS case, there's an EQUAL gain to be made on both sides. Not so much with the passenger side of the house.

On the subject of passports and JAA licenses, well we just have to disagree. You say you have to have a passport in the EU, I don't ,just the right to work, just like the states. However I have a lot of buddies in the states that don't get hired because they don't have passports.

Whoa there fella, back right on up. Name ONE MAJOR carrier in the U.K. that allows you to come to work without have a Passport issued by someone in the EU?

One...? KLM? Nope. British Airways? Nope. Keep hunting, you MIGHT find some small airline with 20-40 aircraft that has been able to obtain a SHORT-TERM WAIVER, usually not to exceed 6 months or a year, but no DESIRABLE, major carriers in the U.K. allow it.

As a U.S. citizen, I can't even get my foot in the DOOR over there, then go over, marry some EU chick, and get permanent citizenship.

YOUR citizens CAN do that over here, and have. All but 2 of my foreign friends at my previous carrier married U.S. citizens to get citizenship. All but 4 of those are now divorced.

Again, it's not an equal opportunity environment, and you, with your experience, should know better.

As for the 4 year collega degree, dude, get real, how many single/married white males get hired without a degree????????

Quite a few, actually. The degree makes a difference if you have two, equal candidates in a major airline interview, but often the candidates aren't equal. I can think of 10 guys from my prior carrier who have landed jobs at AAI, JBlu, SWA, and CAL without the 4-year. In fact, the 2 buddies I have that are black didn't get the jobs, strangely enough, and had the degree.

Finally and last, You talk about point to point in the UK, That's not really realistic, it would be like comparing Travel within Indiana or whatever state. If you want to make a serious comparions between EUrope and the EU consider it the united states of Europe, because that's what the open skies agreement is about.

No, that's NOT what Open Skies was about, and that's what people like you need to understand.

US Carriers ALREADY HAVE the ability to go to different countries point-to-point inside the EU.

US Carries HAVE NO INTEREST in doing point-to-point inside individual countries inside the EU.

EU carriers, however, have EVERYTHING TO GAIN, opening up a HUGE revenue source inside OUR country, and we, as Americans, GAIN NOTHING.

This isn't OPEN SKIES, it's more "Open SEASON on American Jobs, American profits, and American futures."

You guys get all the benefit, we get nothing but a downward push on compensation and quality of life.

Lastly, having experienced both sides I think I'am little bit more qualified to comment on both sides of the issues than some redneck A'hole that thinks the worls revolves around the US of the A

Redneck A*shole?

Nice. I think the General was right. Elitist attitude indeed. How's this? P*ss Right Off.

It doesn't have anything to do with me being a Redneck, although I am from TN, own a truck, a dog, a shotgun in the rack, and I'm a proud card-carrying member of the NRA and don't appreciate attacks on my country, financial or otherwise. If that makes me a redneck, mmmmm... OK.

It also doesn't have anything to do with the world revolving around the United States. This is about FAIRNESS and future loss of job security and compensation/QOL for U.S. Citizens.

U.S. Citizens benefit NOTHING from this Agreement. You had nothing to offer us in Open Skies. Except for kickbacks to the Bush financial coffer... How is that fair?

 

[General Lee]

Well General, Gota say, little bit supprised as I thought That you had a slightly more open mind to the rest of the world.

However, could you mind explaining about our union getting into trouble and you guys bailing us out?

Have you seen the news on Iran and the British getting captured while patrolling in disputed waters? Have you seen our extra response to put more pressure on getting this resolved? (an extra US carrier was just diverted from a UAE port to join a carrier already there) That is typical---we have to be the mussle.


As far as having an open mind when it comes to the rest of the world, my comment came from your response to Ozcam. I am all for more airlines flying INTL routes to other countries. The problem with US carriers flying into the EU and doing "domestic" flying is that most countries still have their own rules, even in the EU. That will change somewhat, but there are still protections against setting up shop in another country for domestic service. That is good. Adding some INTL service helps everyone. Also, most countries over there are small, like the Netherlands. You have what, 3 large cities with air service (AMS, Einhoven, and Rotterdam)? Fokker 50s do most of that flying intra Netherlands.

The main thrust of this new agreement is to get into LHR. That has been a fortress for years, and any other country from the EU could get slots most likely, while only a couple from the US enjoyed the ability. We don't shut off JFK to everyone, and LHR should be open too.



Bye Bye--General Lee