Open Skies US/EU Approved

[flyburg]

Both sides, eh? Hmmmmm.

Ohhh, for crying out loud, having got my licences in Chesapeake VA, instructing for 3 years in OH, then a year and a half with grand aire express in KY before moving on to CHQ for 4 years. then on to KLM for the last 6 years.

What, in your mind qualifies both sides??????????????????

 

[General Lee]

"Lastly, having experienced both sides I think I'am little bit more qualified to comment on both sides of the issues than some redneck A'hole that thinks the worls revolves around the US of the A."



That is typical European aristocratic thinking. Listen here dutchy, everytime your union gets into trouble, we are bailing you out. You are all talk and no show. And, just because you go "both ways" and have experienced it from "both sides" doesn't mean you know what you are talking about. We have ONE thru flight in Europe---NWA flying onto BOM. That's it chief. You can bring up UPS and FedEx, but that is because the only alternative you have is DHL (which is a distant third in the rest of the world), TNT, and the huge French Post. And, Transavia would be sunk without the Sun Countryt dry lease, with less traffic in Europe during the Winter. Next time, bring a real argument with some facts.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[flyburg]

""



That is typical European aristocratic thinking. Listen here dutchy, everytime your union gets into trouble, we are bailing you out. You are all talk and no show. And, just because you go "both ways" and have experienced it from "both sides" doesn't mean you know what you are talking about. We have ONE thru flight in Europe---NWA flying onto BOM. That's it chief. You can bring up UPS and FedEx, but that is because the only alternative you have is DHL (which is a distant third in the rest of the world), TNT, and the huge French Post. Next time, bring a real argument with some facts.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Well General, Gota say, little bit supprised as I thought That you had a slightly more open mind to the rest of the world.

However, could you mind explaining about our union getting into trouble and you guys bailing us out because the last time I checked NWA was furloughing gyus that were then given jobs with KLM, Also the Pilot PP2 deal with we struck with AF is one of a kind. Please explain The real argjument versus the fact in realition wath I said

Kind greatings

 

[Lear70]

I'll try and start from the beginning

NWA does not fly to x then y then Z. I think this is exactly what the new agreement is about. Fly to one destination then onto the next in Europe. What did you think it was about???

You just made my case for me, thanks.

You're absolutely right. NWA does NOT fly to x to y, then on to z INSIDE the U.K.

Under this new law, they would be allowed to. However, they wouldn't WANT to in most cases.

However, now YOUR country's carriers CAN do this inside U.S. soil.

That makes it a SEVERELY unequal agreement. Your government said, "Sure, we'll let you do that", knowing full well no U.S. carrier would want to.

No brainer for EU countries, lose-lose for US airline employees.

you are not worried about KLM but over Ryan air etc. etc. Funny that Transavia Airlines for the last summers has wet leased Sun Country airlines that operated overhere on their on certificate while every winter Transavia has dry leased A/C to Sun because they couldn't operate in the US without a 121 certificate.

What, exactly, was your argument here?

I can't tell, but I think you just made my point again. It's the small airlines that have the ability to run point to point inside the continental U.S. and those small airlines are the ones who have the crappy compensation and work rule packages in the EU.

Branson: It still remains to be seen whether they are going to make it, mean while it remains open to any US carrier to do the same over here. I know UPS is already interested in buying TNT and getting a base in Liege.

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. But let's do that for a second.

You can bring up UPS and FedEx, but that is because the only alternative you have is DHL (which is a distant third in the rest of the world), TNT, and the huge French Post. And, Transavia would be sunk without the Sun Countryt dry lease, with less traffic in Europe during the Winter. Next time, bring a real argument with some facts.

The General makes an excellent point as a sidebar to his main point, and that is that TNT and the French Post will now be able to run their own freight from the EU to anywhere in the U.S.

Question is, will they? At least in THIS case, there's an EQUAL gain to be made on both sides. Not so much with the passenger side of the house.

On the subject of passports and JAA licenses, well we just have to disagree. You say you have to have a passport in the EU, I don't ,just the right to work, just like the states. However I have a lot of buddies in the states that don't get hired because they don't have passports.

Whoa there fella, back right on up. Name ONE MAJOR carrier in the U.K. that allows you to come to work without have a Passport issued by someone in the EU?

One...? KLM? Nope. British Airways? Nope. Keep hunting, you MIGHT find some small airline with 20-40 aircraft that has been able to obtain a SHORT-TERM WAIVER, usually not to exceed 6 months or a year, but no DESIRABLE, major carriers in the U.K. allow it.

As a U.S. citizen, I can't even get my foot in the DOOR over there, then go over, marry some EU chick, and get permanent citizenship.

YOUR citizens CAN do that over here, and have. All but 2 of my foreign friends at my previous carrier married U.S. citizens to get citizenship. All but 4 of those are now divorced.

Again, it's not an equal opportunity environment, and you, with your experience, should know better.

As for the 4 year collega degree, dude, get real, how many single/married white males get hired without a degree????????

Quite a few, actually. The degree makes a difference if you have two, equal candidates in a major airline interview, but often the candidates aren't equal. I can think of 10 guys from my prior carrier who have landed jobs at AAI, JBlu, SWA, and CAL without the 4-year. In fact, the 2 buddies I have that are black didn't get the jobs, strangely enough, and had the degree.

Finally and last, You talk about point to point in the UK, That's not really realistic, it would be like comparing Travel within Indiana or whatever state. If you want to make a serious comparions between EUrope and the EU consider it the united states of Europe, because that's what the open skies agreement is about.

No, that's NOT what Open Skies was about, and that's what people like you need to understand.

US Carriers ALREADY HAVE the ability to go to different countries point-to-point inside the EU.

US Carries HAVE NO INTEREST in doing point-to-point inside individual countries inside the EU.

EU carriers, however, have EVERYTHING TO GAIN, opening up a HUGE revenue source inside OUR country, and we, as Americans, GAIN NOTHING.

This isn't OPEN SKIES, it's more "Open SEASON on American Jobs, American profits, and American futures."

You guys get all the benefit, we get nothing but a downward push on compensation and quality of life.

Lastly, having experienced both sides I think I'am little bit more qualified to comment on both sides of the issues than some redneck A'hole that thinks the worls revolves around the US of the A

Redneck A*shole?

Nice. I think the General was right. Elitist attitude indeed. How's this? P*ss Right Off.

It doesn't have anything to do with me being a Redneck, although I am from TN, own a truck, a dog, a shotgun in the rack, and I'm a proud card-carrying member of the NRA and don't appreciate attacks on my country, financial or otherwise. If that makes me a redneck, mmmmm... OK.

It also doesn't have anything to do with the world revolving around the United States. This is about FAIRNESS and future loss of job security and compensation/QOL for U.S. Citizens.

U.S. Citizens benefit NOTHING from this Agreement. You had nothing to offer us in Open Skies. Except for kickbacks to the Bush financial coffer... How is that fair?

 

[General Lee]

Well General, Gota say, little bit supprised as I thought That you had a slightly more open mind to the rest of the world.

However, could you mind explaining about our union getting into trouble and you guys bailing us out?

Have you seen the news on Iran and the British getting captured while patrolling in disputed waters? Have you seen our extra response to put more pressure on getting this resolved? (an extra US carrier was just diverted from a UAE port to join a carrier already there) That is typical---we have to be the mussle.


As far as having an open mind when it comes to the rest of the world, my comment came from your response to Ozcam. I am all for more airlines flying INTL routes to other countries. The problem with US carriers flying into the EU and doing "domestic" flying is that most countries still have their own rules, even in the EU. That will change somewhat, but there are still protections against setting up shop in another country for domestic service. That is good. Adding some INTL service helps everyone. Also, most countries over there are small, like the Netherlands. You have what, 3 large cities with air service (AMS, Einhoven, and Rotterdam)? Fokker 50s do most of that flying intra Netherlands.

The main thrust of this new agreement is to get into LHR. That has been a fortress for years, and any other country from the EU could get slots most likely, while only a couple from the US enjoyed the ability. We don't shut off JFK to everyone, and LHR should be open too.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[flyburg]

Whow,it's like talling to little kids, A lot of yelling, Genearal you still did not explain how you helped our union out???

Other than that, I guess we have to wait a few years to see who benefits most. My bed still goes to the US airlines, but w'll see

 

[Lear70]

Whow,it's like talling to little kids, A lot of yelling,

Never yelled, but I do believe that was you who started calling people names?

Ayuh, that would be correct.

Talk about childish...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I hate to say it, but what's the difference between cheap foreign labor like that and the domestic 500 hour CFI's with SJS?

About 250 hours and 10K less a year and that 10k being put into a foreign economy and less US pilot jobs because more foreigners are flying thier aricraft into the US.....

Take a look at the US maritime industry for a hint.... or the ex US maritime industry...

 

[General Lee]

Whow,it's like talling to little kids, A lot of yelling, Genearal you still did not explain how you helped our union out???

Other than that, I guess we have to wait a few years to see who benefits most. My bed still goes to the US airlines, but w'll see

Sorry, is Britian in your Union? We seem to be protecting British interests in the Gulf (wasn't their Navy the best in the World at one time??). A lot of the EU figure heads know we will back them up if they get challenged. It always happens that way. All talk, no power.

As far as who will benefit from this agreement, I agree, the US airlines will finally get granted LHR slots, and the European airlines will start fighting on profitable flight pairings from Europe to the US that were once only allowed to that nation's airline. CDG to JFK can now be flown by Iberia or Madrid to JFK can be flown by Lufthansa. It will be interesting.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Freight Dog]

About 250 hours and 10K less a year and that 10k being put into a foreign economy and less US pilot jobs because more foreigners are flying thier aricraft into the US.....

Take a look at the US maritime industry for a hint.... or the ex US maritime industry...

No arguments there... except that a lot of NB flying now is done by guys already making, shall we say, less than optimum wages.