Open Skies Part 2

[Skywest Pylot]

Am I the only one who is really concerned about Open Skies part 2?

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSL2864852720080328

European airlines have complained this deal unfairly favors U.S. rivals and EU states have threatened to scrap it if Washington does not agree by 2010 to a second phase allowing foreign airlines to buy more voting rights in U.S. carriers and permitting them to run domestic U.S. services.

Foreign carriers flying point to point in the U.S.?!

Foreign entities acquiring controlling stakes in U.S. carriers?!

Think about the potential devastation to our industry if this goes through. Negotiations start on May 15th.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

What was ALPA doing during the foundation of Part 1?

The framework has already been established. I guess since it is already a reality ALPA will just go along with anything presented to be PART OF THE PROCESS.

 

[Skywest Pylot]

I have a theory that age 65 was hurried into place by our government to put us in line with ICAO in preparation for Open Skies. Now U.S. pilots won't be able to complain when foreign pilots are flying around our country past age 60. Do you really think the federal government cares about giving you 5 more years to fly? ALPA will probably stand by and do nothing. But hey, we got more flights into Heathrow Dude!

 

[General Lee]

Am I the only one who is really concerned about Open Skies part 2?

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSL2864852720080328



Foreign carriers flying point to point in the U.S.?!

Foreign entities acquiring controlling stakes in U.S. carriers?!

Think about the potential devastation to our industry if this goes through. Negotiations start on May 15th.

Can you see Southwest competing with Ryanair intra Europe? They don't want that over there either. What constrains them is the lack of gates or slots at major US airports. Ryanair could go the Skybus route and go to smaller airports, but that really hasn't caught on. As far as foreign carriers acquiring CONTROLLING stakes, not likely. If the Gov't needs MAC lift to invade Iran, and France doesn't want that, they could say no. So, there won't be a CONTROLLING stake allowed. They can have a minority stake, and give us better credit to buy planes, but that is likely it. How do you think we got most of our troops to Iraq in 2003(?) and Kuwait back in the early 90s?

And Part 1 dealt with LHR slots, and allowing EU members the right to fly anywhere in the US, as long as they got the slots and gates. We did the same at LHR--either borrowing the slots or buying them (like CAL and USAir did).


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Skywest Pylot]

As far as foreign carriers acquiring CONTROLLING stakes, not likely. If the Gov't needs MAC lift to invade Iran, and France doesn't want that, they could say no. So, there won't be a CONTROLLING stake allowed. They can have a minority stake, and give us better credit to buy planes, but that is likely it. How do you think we got most of our troops to Iraq in 2003(?) and Kuwait back in the early 90s?

What we gonna do if France says they're not gonna send us anymore parts for our tankers cause they don't believe in the cause?

 

[Skywest Pylot]

What constrains them is the lack of gates or slots at major US airports.

How did JetBlue get into JFK? It can be done.

 

[Skywest Pylot]

Speaking of JetBlue (Lufthansa) and Virgin America (Virgin)..........

 

[General Lee]

How did JetBlue get into JFK? It can be done.

Thanks for that. Ok, now name another airport that NOW has plenty of slots available, at a Major city. I'm waiting.....Tell me one airport. STL? PIT? Why hasn't Southwest added more flights or taken advantage of that? Any other LARGE cities with extra space at the airport? Any slots now available at JFK by the way? Nope. How about any NYC airport? Maybe SWF or HPN may have some space, but they aren't close to NYC. Do you get the point yet? ORD, IAD, DCA, PHL, LAS, LAX, SFO, SEA, DEN, etc? DFW may have a few gates open at Delta's old terminal, but that is all I can think of, and AA would make sure they would pay. Airtran has shed flights there ever since they started to compete with AA. It just doesn't look like there is much room for competition, and the US airlines know that. How many total slots did US airlines get at LHR? Maybe 15 new slots total. Delta got 3 landing and 3 departure. CAL got 5 or 6, USAir got 2, NWA got 6 I think. It is all about availability of slots and gates at all of the major airports, even LHR.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Speaking of JetBlue (Lufthansa) and Virgin America (Virgin)..........

Virgin America doesn't really give Virgin Atlantic any feed. They might be able to connect one or two flights to Virgin Atlantic, but they don't really do that. And Lufthansa has 3 flights a day to JFK (total), and 2 to BOS. Not all of their pax are connections to Jetblue. Will those numbers changfe in the future? Depends if Jetblue can give other airlines slots at JFK. I don't think that is allowed for a certain number of months (maybe the first 18?).


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[imlars]

I will add it to the worry list behind:

1. delayed career
2. commodity prices
3. economy
4. politics
5. Ranger pitching
6. global warming
7. artificial sweetner
8,9,10.......ect.

 

[Raskal]

What we gonna do if France says they're not gonna send us anymore parts for our tankers cause they don't believe in the cause?

Every country sells arms to anyone (at least until the press hears about it)-isn't that what a free market is according to conservatives?

No one will stop selling anyone anything-cash is king.

After all, we put Sadam there, we put the shah there and so on and on and on.

 

[IronCityBlue]

I have a theory that age 65 was hurried into place by our government to put us in line with ICAO in preparation for Open Skies. Now U.S. pilots won't be able to complain when foreign pilots are flying around our country past age 60. Do you really think the federal government cares about giving you 5 more years to fly? ALPA will probably stand by and do nothing. But hey, we got more flights into Heathrow Dude!

Exactly. Heathrow is a joke. One tiny little perk in exchange for our entire trans Atlantic market. Gees.

 

[IronCityBlue]

How did JetBlue get into JFK? It can be done.

Easy, no one wanted to fly there, except the international push. Other than that it was a ghost town and a min fuel alternate for LGA. Anyone could have ramped up JFK domestic, but everyone arrogantly thought every customer wanted to be number 50 in line at LGA, including international connections at JFK, or they didn't want to go. JetBlue proved them wrong in a huge way.

 

[Skywest Pylot]

Ok, now name another airport that NOW has plenty of slots available, at a Major city. I'm waiting.....Tell me one airport.

Let's look at the past 8 months. Virgin America launched its inaugural flight on Aug 8, 2007. According to their website they serve the following cities: SFO, SEA, LAS, LAX, SAN, JFK and IAD. Do these airports have plenty of slots? Probably not now (Throw some consolidation and bankruptcies in there and that could quickly change) but it appears some gates are available to the right people for the right price.

Virgin America doesn't really give Virgin Atlantic any feed. They might be able to connect one or two flights to Virgin Atlantic, but they don't really do that.

I know that. On the other, it burns me up to see Sir Richards mug constantly associated with V.A. and there is no question what this guy and the rest of his european buddies want. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...uropeans-rip-up-open-skies-treaty-790935.html)

Virgin Atlantic's president Sir Richard Branson has warned that a treaty liberalising air travel between America and Europe will be "ripped up" unless the US government allows American carriers to be taken over by foreign rivals.

 

[Skywest Pylot]

I will add it to the worry list behind:

1. delayed career
2. commodity prices
3. economy
4. politics
5. Ranger pitching
6. global warming
7. artificial sweetner
8,9,10.......ect.

Wow, you must not care much about preserving your profession.

 

[Skywest Pylot]

Every country sells arms to anyone (at least until the press hears about it)-isn't that what a free market is according to conservatives?

No one will stop selling anyone anything-cash is king.

After all, we put Sadam there, we put the shah there and so on and on and on.

That is exactly my point. The U.S. government seems open to outsourcing everything else so I don't see MAC lift being any different. $$ talks.

As far as foreign carriers acquiring CONTROLLING stakes, not likely. If the Gov't needs MAC lift to invade Iran, and France doesn't want that, they could say no. So, there won't be a CONTROLLING stake allowed. They can have a minority stake, and give us better credit to buy planes, but that is likely it. How do you think we got most of our troops to Iraq in 2003(?) and Kuwait back in the early 90s?

 

[Raskal]

That is exactly my point. The U.S. government seems open to outsourcing everything else so I don't see MAC lift being any different. $$ talks.

I don't know, my take is a bit different. Global industry has, especially with this government, such power that the open skies agreement looks more and more like foreign control will exist in some fashion. Unfortunately I also see the US getting screwed (and letting it happen) since most of the european labor unions make us look like girl scouts-is a US carrier really going to fight to control a european asset? European labor will fight that to the death, country by country...will we?

 

[Skywest Pylot]

I don't know, my take is a bit different. Global industry has, especially with this government, such power that the open skies agreement looks more and more like foreign control will exist in some fashion. Unfortunately I also see the US getting screwed (and letting it happen) since most of the european labor unions make us look like girl scouts-is a US carrier really going to fight to control a european asset? European labor will fight that to the death, country by country...will we?

It is not the Europeans that I am most worried about (I am still worried). There is a lot of $$ and very cheap labor floating around in this world. We cannot let the camel get his nose under the tent.

 

[Raskal]

It is not the Europeans that I am most worried about (I am still worried). There is a lot of $$ and very cheap labor floating around in this world. We cannot let the camel get his nose under the tent.

Well said :beer:

 

[Dornier 335]

Not to put more fuel into the fire, but what was the deal back in the 70s or 80s with Pan Am and TWA having a hub in Berlin flying to European destinations?

Until recently, UPS also had a hub in Koelln/Bonn operating their 72QF out of there.

Can anyone explain?