Open Letter To Alpa Pilots

[Flydaplane]

Once again the selfish greedy bunch are going to win out.
How come a pilot under age 60 must be in the cockpit with an over age 60 pilot? I thought there wasn't a "safety issue". Well, I'm waiting for an answer......Why not two over 60 pilots? That "experience" level would be unbelievable.
Don't worry, in other 10 years ICAO will be short pilots again and they'll extend the age to 70, because it's not a safety issue, there's someone under age 60 up there to save the day if the old dude croaks.
My dad turned 65 today. I get scared driving in a car with him sometimes. If you're 60 years old and don't admit that your skills and capabilities have deteriorated over the years than you're suffering from a case of denial (or dementia).
Why do ATC controllers, Federal Law Enforcement Officers, and others in quick reaction jobs have mandatory retirement age? It's because over time skills deteriorate! Go enjoy the golf course and your family, 30 years is enough.

 

[Falconjet]

I've got TWO letters for Capt McBride:

F and O.

FJ

 

[JAM-BRO]

Nobody "signs on" to work until 60 or any other age. They just take the job that's offered to them.

Sec. 121.383 Airman: Limitations on use of services.
(a) No certificate holder may use any person as an airman nor may any
person serve as an airman unless that person--
(1) Holds an appropriate current airman certificate issued by the FAA;
(2) Has any required appropriate current airman and medical certificates in
his possession while engaged in operations under this part; and
(3) Is otherwise qualified for the operation for which he is to be used.
(b) Each airman covered by paragraph (a)(2) of this section shall present
either or both certificates for inspection upon the request of the
Administrator.
(c) No certificate holder may use the services of any person as a pilot on
an airplane engaged in operations under this part if that person has reached
his 60th birthday. No person may serve as a pilot on an airplane engaged in
operations under this part if that person has reached his 60th birthday.


Nindiri

If you work for a 121 carrier, this applies. You DO sign up to work until you are 59 yrs and 364 days old. I don't see were it says that AGE 60 is dependent on greedy pilots wanting to change how the game is played after the fact.

 

[Cpt. Underpants]

The vast majority of posters on this forum never cease to amaze me with their collective stupidity. You're like a pack of drooling hyenas, giggling stupidly over the misfortune of a wounded animal.

Remember what you say and proseletise in public - one day your turn will come. Shame on all of you.

 

[Ty Webb]

See, the problem is that in order for your dad to stay, there will be at least one guy who remains furloughed and MANY others denied an improvement in their quality of life. Is that fair? I forget the exact number, but every time someone at UAL retires, there are about 5 seat changes that result

I myself have a dog in this fight too. If this passes I won't upgrade for at least 5 more years. So my salary will be roughly HALF of what it would have been for those five years, or to put it in dollars, I'll lose about $350,000 in those five years. Let's see, any accountants out there? What is the time value of that money invested over 15 years before I turn 60?

. . . . . . The bottom line is that the junior folk will lose FAR MORE than the senior people will gain. If it was an even trade, I might reconsider but until there is some way to resolve that, my vote is NO.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!


.

 

[Flopgut]

G-code: You need to get spooled up on how this business was run before your father's time. ALPA merger policy once produced a pretty clean deal until UALALPA stuffed a knife in the back of the original Frontier Airlines' pilots. They wanted to screw America West AND USAir just a few years ago, and most recently they destroyed the working reality of junior UAL pilots in a desperate attempt to save their A fund. Which, by the way, every junior UAL pilot I know knew was a flawed attempt. I'm sure he's enormously dear to you and that's great but your father's generation absolutely screwed this business. Specifically that UAL pilot generation displayed some profound greed. Ask him about the FAL pilots, and what he thought should happen to America West and USAir with regard to ALPA merger policy. See if what he says satisfies you. Dealing with a normal retirement age of 60 is no hardship compared to what his UAL generation has done, and wanted to do, to his ALPA AND UAL bretheren.

 

[ex j-41]

But more importantly, I challenge ALPA to petition the FAA to immediately start granting exemptions for pilots to fly past age 60, because it is just the right thing to do.

Fraternally,



Captain Steven B. McBride
United Airlines
B-747-400 SFOFO
Loyal Member of ALPA and Airline Pilots Against Age Discrimination (APAAD)

Sure you want it.....Screw all those behind you. Think about 5 years of ZERO movement. Five more years of the people that screwed us,

 

[Morning Wood]

typos on a forum...are common, and those who point them out to try to degrade the person posting is a sign of a REAL lack of intellect. To get to the point. Its funny who is screwing us on this age 60 rule.ALPA! They have been fighting it, why? who the heck knows.....But something behind the scenes is having alpa fight the wrong fight. What they should be doing is making a study group to make the approval of this change faster. I understand that by changing the rule it would make any future professional plans and time frame I would like be a lot slower. But lets be serious, Foxhunter has a point, it is the right thing to do. I hope alpa is out there reading this.

So type it up in Word and run spell check. Then copy and paste. I'm amazed at the big talk about being taken seriously and how much everyone thinks they deserve, yet they spell and construct sentences like a 7th grader.

 

[zamabratt]

It is a shame these "seniors" can't depart their professional careers with some dignity. Whining and crying like enfants.(they even have their children doing it) Guys, FH is a quack. Just ignore him and let him burn up in his own rage. If you see him in person all that comes to mind is what a "goof."

 

[FoxHunter]

It is a shame these "seniors" can't depart their professional careers with some dignity. Whining and crying like enfants.(they even have their children doing it) Guys, FH is a quack. Just ignore him and let him burn up in his own rage. If you see him in person all that comes to mind is what a "goof."

Sorry you won't find any rage here. Remember they say today age 60 is the new age 40.:beer: :laugh:

 

[pipe]

Sorry you won't find any rage here. Remember they say today age 60 is the new age 40.:beer: :laugh:

Guess that makes you an inexperienced idiot. Apparently that's how you old geniuses feel about those of us that actually are 40ish.

PIPE

 

[g-code]

It is a shame these "seniors" can't depart their professional careers with some dignity. Whining and crying like enfants.(they even have their children doing it) Guys, FH is a quack. Just ignore him and let him burn up in his own rage. If you see him in person all that comes to mind is what a "goof."

FYI, I think for myself. Obviously, I'm going to be sympathetic towards my father's position, but I was trying to present how things look from an even YOUNGER guy. Then you go and say something nasty. My dad doesn't complain to me; I just watch him carefully.

(BTW Infants, not Enfants whine )

 

[whymeworry?]

Capt. McBride fails to mention his responsibility in voting for TWO concessionary contracts at UAL over the past 5 years. It was the senior UAL pilots who voted in the concessions out of fear. They hardly put up a fight to the courts and to the company virtuallying paving the way for consultants, attorneys, and exectutives to get rich. Now, instead of going after those who stole their pension, they want the entire national union of pilots to support their cause. Great, you did the right thing in '85 but post 9/11 you screwed the pooch. Little AQ put up more of a fight than mighty UAL. You voted yourselves to the position you are now in contracturally.

1) There is a safety factor with the age limit. This cannot ignored. You are your groups are choosing to blatantly brush aside this topic. Is your career really that much more important than the safety of your passengers? I will admit there are a good number of age-60 guys with the mental acuity to continue flying. But its the measure of that acuity that needs to be studied. Further to this, how will that study affect the pilots as whole? Will the younger pilots be forced out of a job due so some flawed test? A test that resulted due to the age-60 guys wanted their cake too?

A good protion of psych/ mental tests are flawed. DAL tests their pilot applicants and I know a half dozen who got through that clearly would not make it elsewhere. NASA gave their astronauts psych tests, look at how productive that was.

The system works now and is safe. Age-65 proponents want the change for selfish reasons. They seem to pay little heed to the safety aspect of the sublte effects of aging.

2) These pilots that Capt. McBride refers to are not being terminated... they are retiring, big difference, and part of a rule structure that guys like McBride benefitted from over the past 35 years. Stop the drama and state truth, McBride.

3) If they really love to fly, and really need to make up that retirement money, why are none of them open to flying as SIC? Every captain I've suggested this to has flat out refused such an idea.

4) Don't blame the so-called younger pilots for your financial mis-management over the years. You are supposed to prepare for retirement in a variety of ways. The airline pension was just one of them. I have flown with guys who must fly enough overtime to cover their $13,000 a month nut. They then tell me in the same breath that they need the rule to change. Try fiscal prudence, try downsizing your life a little, try paying down your debt BEFORE you retire. Or are you such a brand-slave that the thought of cutting back a little is pure torture? Its a bit disingenious to cry about your financial problems then speed away from the employee parking lot in your BMW/ Lexus/ Vette while bragging about your pretentious habits of Harleys, 4000 sq. ft homes, and boats. If you haven't properly planned for retirement now, no amount of age extention is going to save you. I will admit that your pension was taken out from under you and that is shameful. But spend your time and efforts going after the corporate robber barons who stole from you. Furthermore, consider flying as SIC if you really need to make up the coin.

5) This issue will divide our union and seriously undermine unity amoung pilots for the next 20 years if we are all not careful. Consider the implications with respect to the divide and conquer opportunity this will give our companies. Oh wait, I forgot, you could care less about anything but your own interests.

 

[AdlerDriver]

My friend responded, “But this sounds a lot like the group of pilots that tried to take your job during the strike in May of 1985. What was the term you used to describe that group of pilots? This is a lack of consideration and respect for the striking pilots of May of 1985, who risked their jobs for the all the union pilots.” _

Foxhunter/Capt. McBride:

As a furloughed UAL pilot (long gone for greener pastures at Fedex – thank God!), I started reading your post and was initially happy. I had seen an earlier thread dealing with scabs and their crimes and was surprised at how many here were willing to let them slide. I thought, “Oh, good, here’s a vet of the ’85 strike who may give some of these guys a different perspective. Maybe help them understand what true “low lifes” the scabs were.” Even though the UAL MEC did a much better job in the spring of ’05 edition of their publication on the 20th anniversary of the strike, I thought maybe you’d have some additional insight.

As I got toward the end, I realized where you were going with it and I was shocked. YGBSM!!
You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
Using some veiled quote from “a friend outside the industry” you basically call those opposed to changing the retirement age - scabs. You of all people KNOW BETTER!!

So, I along with 95% of the pilots on the property went on strike in May of 1985, and we all risked loosing our jobs and risked not being able to support our families, because it was just the right thing to do. _

While I respect the stand you and others took in ’85, you can only ride the wave so long. You and many of the 570 I’ve flown with, sound like the high school football hero 20 years later trying to resurrect their glory days and get one more pat on the back. I’ve never been on strike but I will if necessary. It’s not like it really takes that much if you really think about the reality. Go out and walk the picket line or spend the remainder of your flying career as a pariah in a miserable existence. Not a tough choice for anyone with even a small measure of morality. You were part of a group of like-minded pilots who worked together to achieve a goal. Any fool knows it’s a lot easier to go with the crowd (especially when they’re the “good guys”) and be part of the team.
So, you were risking losing (not loosing – BTW) your job? Well, what were your choices? Once the strike vote was a “yes” – the train was rolling. You just jumped on and hoped for the best – just like most of us would do in the same situation – because, as you said, “It was the right thing to do”. You had to support your family??? Well so did all us furloughees!!! – and guess what…. We went out and found other jobs – some got flying jobs, some didn’t. We’ve all lost our flying jobs and had to support our families anyway – and for a lot longer than the ’85 strike. Just because yours was voluntary, the fact is, we’ve all jumped or were pushed off that cliff and it ain’t as bad as you’re making it out to be. So don’t whine to me or anyone else about what you were risking in the strike. I doubt you spent a second walking the picket line thinking you were doing it for “the younger pilots would now be on a B-scale, earning half of what they now”. Give me a break. Get over yourself – we don’t owe you anymore consideration and respect. . Actually your letter cost you much of the respect you had from me.

Where was your resolution on changing the retirement age in say…… 1980 when you got furloughed? That would have gotten you off furlough a lot sooner - right?? . Or how about when you were waiting to hold a line or upgrade to Captain on the "whale"? Didn't here much out of you then about changing the age to 65......hmmmm. Why was that?
You knew the retirement age when you started this gig and it’s time to pay the piper. You’ve had 27+ years to try to fix this problem you feel so strongly about. What is it now at this late date? Alimony, college for the kids, boredom? So, when are you going to quit ALPA? Relive your glory days and have a little “mini-strike” against the union who is attempting to support the MAJORITY of its members.

I’ll pass a message to you from my UAL friends still on furlough or just returning when I say: “Go play some golf, enjoy your retirement, and get the f#ck out of THEIR SEAT!!!”

 

[xjhawk]

well said

You know, I have to disagree. A message board is a conversation. In a spoken conversation if you sound like an idiot - people think you're an idiot. Same deal here.

PIPE

I guess...................

 

[Ty Webb]

Foxhunter-

The votes are in, and you have officially "had your ass handed to you". . . . and your imaginary friends' asses, too, for that matter.

How embarassing for you! :erm:


.

 

[FoxHunter]

Foxhunter-

The votes are in, and you have officially "had your ass handed to you". . . . and your imaginary friends' asses, too, for that matter.

How embarassing for you! :erm:


.

You're kidding me. I'm not the one in low earth orbit. :laugh:

 

[whymeworry?]

Foxhunter/Capt. McBride:

As a furloughed UAL pilot (long gone for greener pastures at Fedex – thank God!), I started reading your post and was initially happy. I had seen an earlier thread dealing with scabs and their crimes and was surprised at how many here were willing to let them slide. I thought, “Oh, good, here’s a vet of the ’85 strike who may give some of these guys a different perspective. Maybe help them understand what true “low lifes” the scabs were.” Even though the UAL MEC did a much better job in the spring of ’05 edition of their publication on the 20th anniversary of the strike, I thought maybe you’d have some additional insight.

As I got toward the end, I realized where you were going with it and I was shocked. YGBSM!!
You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
Using some veiled quote from “a friend outside the industry” you basically call those opposed to changing the retirement age - scabs. You of all people KNOW BETTER!!



While I respect the stand you and others took in ’85, you can only ride the wave so long. You and many of the 570 I’ve flown with, sound like the high school football hero 20 years later trying to resurrect their glory days and get one more pat on the back. I’ve never been on strike but I will if necessary. It’s not like it really takes that much if you really think about the reality. Go out and walk the picket line or spend the remainder of your flying career as a pariah in a miserable existence. Not a tough choice for anyone with even a small measure of morality. You were part of a group of like-minded pilots who worked together to achieve a goal. Any fool knows it’s a lot easier to go with the crowd (especially when they’re the “good guys”) and be part of the team.
So, you were risking losing (not loosing – BTW) your job? Well, what were your choices? Once the strike vote was a “yes” – the train was rolling. You just jumped on and hoped for the best – just like most of us would do in the same situation – because, as you said, “It was the right thing to do”. You had to support your family??? Well so did all us furloughees!!! – and guess what…. We went out and found other jobs – some got flying jobs, some didn’t. We’ve all lost our flying jobs and had to support our families anyway – and for a lot longer than the ’85 strike. Just because yours was voluntary, the fact is, we’ve all jumped or were pushed off that cliff and it ain’t as bad as you’re making it out to be. So don’t whine to me or anyone else about what you were risking in the strike. I doubt you spent a second walking the picket line thinking you were doing it for “the younger pilots would now be on a B-scale, earning half of what they now”. Give me a break. Get over yourself – we don’t owe you anymore consideration and respect. . Actually your letter cost you much of the respect you had from me.

Where was your resolution on changing the retirement age in say…… 1980 when you got furloughed? That would have gotten you off furlough a lot sooner - right?? . Or how about when you were waiting to hold a line or upgrade to Captain on the "whale"? Didn't here much out of you then about changing the age to 65......hmmmm. Why was that?
You knew the retirement age when you started this gig and it’s time to pay the piper. You’ve had 27+ years to try to fix this problem you feel so strongly about. What is it now at this late date? Alimony, college for the kids, boredom? So, when are you going to quit ALPA? Relive your glory days and have a little “mini-strike” against the union who is attempting to support the MAJORITY of its members.

I’ll pass a message to you from my UAL friends still on furlough or just returning when I say: “Go play some golf, enjoy your retirement, and get the f#ck out of THEIR SEAT!!!”

Classic! Nice job, Alder... so perfectly put. Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Falconjet]

The cowardly FH didn't even right the letter nor was he a striker at CAL or Eastern as he has tried to let you believe. In fact, until just a few months ago he was a non-member of the union. He found religion about a year ago and paid his back dues to become a member, but his selfish acts, egregious comments towards anybody opposed to his side, and sanctimonious attitude show the true lack of depth to his character.

Calling those opposed scabs (myself) members of the KKK because we don't agree with him are definitely indicative of his obvious lack of class and character. How he managed to get this far in life without getting shanked is beyond me.

Put him on ignore as I have and pay him no mind. He is worse than a non member now because he is a member who refuses to acknowledge the will of the majority and uses his access to feed info to the other side. He is a traitor and a coward, I wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire.

FJ

 

[Falconjet]

Nice post Adledriver;

Just don't confuse Foxhunter with Capt McBride. At least Capt McBride puts his name out there for people to judge. FH is small little coward who throws the word scab and KKK member around like it means nothing. FH is a former non member at FedEx who has done nothing in life and can't come to grips with his coming retirement or move to the back seat of the Boeing.

Someday he will realize sitting in his rocking chair in the old folks home why he has no friends.

FJ

 

[FoxHunter]

Nice post Adledriver;

Just don't confuse Foxhunter with Capt McBride. At least Capt McBride puts his name out there for people to judge. FH is small little coward who throws the word scab and KKK member around like it means nothing. FH is a former non member at FedEx who has done nothing in life and can't come to grips with his coming retirement or move to the back seat of the Boeing.

Someday he will realize sitting in his rocking chair in the old folks home why he has no friends.

FJ

Looks like Capt. McBride also has your number.

 

[Flopgut]

Fox: We'll all fly West and be written into history someday. A pilot like youself will wish that a "KKK" sort of comment could be bestowed upon you. It would be a vast improvement over how you will be accurately portrayed. You aren't fit to carry the bag of a real aviator.

 

[FoxHunter]

Fox: We'll all fly West and be written into history someday. A pilot like youself will wish that a "KKK" sort of comment could be bestowed upon you. It would be a vast improvement over how you will be accurately portrayed. You aren't fit to carry the bag of a real aviator.

Times are changing, times are changing.

 

[Flopgut]

Some things will always be the same.